PODCAST | When The Unexplainable Intersects The Undeniable (feat. Joby Martin)

Resources:

For more resources, visit: https://www.jobymartin.com/

Deepen Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deepen-with-pastor-joby-martin/id1559984586?ign-itscg=30200&ign-itsct=podcast_box

Anything Is Possible Book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1546001697?tag=hacboogrosit-20

Follow Joby Martin on Social Platforms:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jobypmartin/

 

 

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:

Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, William Vanderbloeman talks with Joby Martin. Pastor Joby's the founder and lead pastor of the Church of Eleven22 in Jacksonville, Florida. He's also a national and international preacher and teacher. In this conversation, Joby talks about his latest book, Anything Is Possible and what happens when the unexplainable intersects the undeniable. He encourages listeners that God still does miracles today, and that believers have access to the incredible power that raised Jesus from the dead, and ultimately reminds us not to seek miracles themselves, but the one who performs them. We hope you enjoy this conversation.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, hey, everybody. Glad to have you here today, and so glad to have my friend Joby Martin back. If you don't know Joby, and if you are not watching this, then Joby's a hunter. He's the only podcast guest with a bear skin on his wall, which is pretty impressive. Where'd the bear come from, Joby?

 

Joby Martin:

Arizona.

William Vanderbloemen:

They're bears in Arizona?

Joby Martin:

Big ones. If you get up in the mountain part of it, yes.

William Vanderbloemen:

We saw one in New Mexico one time when we were driving up to Utah, along the side of the highway, running. I'm like, "What is that?" And it was some kind of... They call it a red bear or something or another, but it was the craziest thing I ever seen. Adrian said, "Look, there's a bear." In the middle of New Mexico. Crazy.

 

Joby Martin:

Yeah, I hunt on the Apache Reservation with some Apache Indians. It's pretty awesome.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

How about that? That's pretty awesome. Well, in your spare time, Joby's a pastor at Church of Eleven22, and Joby, a lot of people know you, but a lot of people may not. Tell us just the origin story of the church, kind of how it got going, and I know you've told that to us before, but love to share that with those who are new.

 

Joby Martin:

Yeah, sure thing. I'm a total accidental church planner. I was doing student ministry at Beach United Methodist Church in Jacksonville Beach, and they let me put together a service. And so the reason our church is called Eleven22 is because that's what time the service started, and I'm the least creative person ever, and I figured if you could just invite somebody to the time, they would know when to get there. And man, in about a year of that service running, it went to about five services and outgrew the church we were at.

And so Pastor Jerry Sweat, who was my pastor, who is my pastor, one of the best Christians I've ever met in my life, said, "I think you ought to plant a church." I didn't even know what that was. So I googled church planning and went to an expo conference and got connected with leadership networks, how I met you. And then in September, 2012, we renovated an old Walmart and we planted the church of Eleven22. And since then, God's breathed on it and it's going really well. Now we're in, let me add it up, 11 campuses right now. Three are in prisons.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Wow.

 

Joby Martin:

Three more campuses are under construction, really exciting times right now. We're about two miles from the Atlantic Ocean here in Jacksonville, and we've got a big beach baptism coming up this weekend. And currently we have 1055 people signed up to go public with their faith and reclaim Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Come on. Come on.

 

Joby Martin:

We're pretty pumped.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Somewhere around 1055, right?

 

Joby Martin:

That's right. Yeah, we still got two services to go. So that number could go up.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

And you're doing all that and at the same time you're filming that Vikings show?

 

Joby Martin:

Yeah, yeah. I'm a stunt double for Ragnar. That's what I do.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

If you haven't seen Vikings, just Google image and lay them next to each other. You'll see, you'll see. The man can be two places at once.

 

Joby Martin:

That is right.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, last time-

 

Joby Martin:

Last time I traveled internationally, man. I mean, everybody in East Africa is like, "You are Ragnar." I'm like, "Okay-"

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Is that right?

 

Joby Martin:

"Can I tell you about Jesus?"

 

William Vanderbloemen:

That's awesome. Well, last time we visited, we talked about If the Tomb is Empty and it's like then that changes everything. I mean, that's the short... It was a book you had come out and it did way better than you thought it might. I mean, God kind of breathed on it like he has with your church. And so there's a sequel out that I really wanted to visit with you about, Anything is Possible. Is that right?

 

Joby Martin:

That's right. And that's-

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Kind of the second half of the sentence, right?

 

Joby Martin:

And in my mind, that's how it worked. Man, if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And a part of where that came from, William, is 30 years of ministry, particularly the last 11 being the lead pastor of Eleven22. Folks would come to me in a seemingly impossible situation, whether it's a physical thing, a health thing, a marital thing, and they would say things like, "Well, pastor, you don't understand. My marriage is dead and I'm in an impossible situation." And I was like, "Well, hold on, man. If God can breathe new life into his dead son, surely he can breathe new life into your marriage." And then just one day a bunch of years ago, I started saying, "Because if the tomb is empty, anything is possible and you believe in the empty tomb, right?" And they're like, "Yeah, of course. I put my faith in Christ." I'm like, "All right, we'll take that same faith and then believe him for the good things and what he can do in your life."

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, the reason I love this is I've been fascinated with... It was seven children. I've covered a lot of different generations, and my oldest is almost 30, and we've talked about this before and none of his friends believer or non-believer has any problem believing in miracles.

 

Joby Martin:

Right.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

It's amazing how the tide has shifted from when we were young and cutting our teeth in ministry. You had to convince people a miracle was possible. Thomas Jefferson cut all the miracles out of his New Testament-

 

Joby Martin:

Correct.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

All enlightened children. But there's a hunger and there's a belief that things can happen. I'm finding that's not unheard of for people to say, "Well, I'm not religious, but I'm kind of spiritual. And miracles can happen." Have you sensed that?

 

Joby Martin:

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I also think the promise of modernity didn't work, that if we were just educated enough, then we would be living in this utopia. Well, how's that working out?

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Exactly.

 

Joby Martin:

It's not. And then also I think, man, we are seeing some things that just a few years ago we would've thought would be impossible. I mean, even things like... I had an appendectomy about six years ago. Man, if I lived a hundred years ago, I'm dead because my appendix burst and I'd have just turned funny colors in the woods of South Georgia and I went to be with the Lord. Or things like AI, and there's all kinds of changing things that we can't really get our head around. I think people have a category that if there is a God, then surely he can operate in our world in a way that may not be explainable, but it is for sure undeniable.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, familiar with the book, what I love about it, I mean, anybody can read it, anybody understand it, but for the longest time, I thought in the New Testament, the point of the miracle was so that somebody who was sick could be well, somebody who's blind could see. And it was for the benefit of the healed. It's really not. It's really not. Walk me through that a little bit and how that plays out in the book.

 

Joby Martin:

Well, the Gospel of John, he never calls miracles, miracles. He only calls them signs or sometimes signs and wonders and a sign points to something greater than it is. So over your shoulder is the skyline of Houston. Well, if I was driving into Houston and there was a big green road sign that said, "Houston," that's not Houston. It's pointing to that people, that city that's behind you. And so every single time Jesus did a sign or a miracle, it wasn't just to flex his raw power, to be like, "Look what I could do." It always pointed to his redemptive purpose. And so that's why the subtitle is How Nine Miracles of Jesus Reveal God's Love for You. And so we walked through nine different miracles pointing to the miracle maker.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, so I'm a linear guy. I was raised with a good Dutch Protestant work ethic. You work hard, you get paid. That's maybe the best lesson my parents taught me. So we're recording this today and earlier today, my preaching professor, Tim Keller, went to be with Jesus. I think he prayed to be healed. I know he did. And it didn't take the cancer away. So did he not pray right? What do you say when the miracle doesn't come?

 

Joby Martin:

Well, Tim Keller's a great example. If you look at his testimony from diagnosis until last week, he was a man that prayed like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego outside of the fiery furnace. "God, I know that you can heal me, and I am believing that you will. And even if you don't, I'm not bowing down to these idols. I'm only worshiping you." I mean, his last public tweet is, "I'm ready to go see Jesus." So I think when Isaiah 55 says that, "He was pierced for our transgressions and by his stripes, we were healed," I think he's experiencing that kind of healing. And there is a difference between healing and cures. But the Bible also says that, "We have not, because we ask not." So that we should go to a good God who loves to give good gifts to his kids and beg him for our loved ones or beg him for our own healing. But there is a whole chapter on here on what do you do when you don't get your miracle.

There's a whole chapter on what do you do when you do get your miracle. Lazarus comes out of the grave and in the very next chapter, John chapter 12, Mary breaks open the most valuable thing she has and pours it on the feet of Jesus in this expression of gratitude at Simon, the Leper's house. Well, the only way they could eat at Simon, the Leper's house is because he must not be a leper anymore, that Jesus must have healed him too. So it's just a big gratitude party, which is what church really ought to be every time you get together, just a big old Simon, the Leper gratitude party. But then sometimes God does not seem to make sense from our perspective. And so there's a whole chapter on what do you do when it just doesn't seem to make sense.

Because I'm going to tell you, man, not that God's asking my opinion, nor does he need to because his ways are not my ways, and he is higher than me for sure, but of all the people on the planet to take out today, CS Lewis would not... I mean, excuse me, Tim Keller. That's a pretty good slip right there. But Tim Keller would not be high on my list, right? I mean, what an incredible gift to the kingdom of God. And there was a lot of work that he was still doing. And so in John chapter 6, everything seems to be going well. There's actually two miracles there. Jesus walks on water and he feeds the 5,000. The crowds are going to, what, maybe like 20,000 people. And then Jesus says, "You're not chasing me, you're chasing a full belly, and I will not be a means to your end." And they say, "Well, if you are the prophet, give us a sign." Like manna from heaven like Moses did, which is a crazy thing.

He just did two miracles within 24 hours. But you chase after the miracle, it will not sustain you. If you chase after the moment, it will not sustain you. And so then he gets into this teaching, "Okay, I got your miracle. I got your bread. I am the bread. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part with me." Think about this. Can you imagine the note-takers, the first century Jewish note-takers, "He didn't say flesh, he said fish, right? He had to say fish because I mean, we can't eat pork much less the prophet. What are you talking about? Flesh?" And then I think the disciples are probably, "Just give him a second. He's going to explain it. That's what he does." He makes it worse. He says, "Unless you feed on my flesh..." What?

Because eat to me sounds like a bite, feed is like the walking dead, just rah-raw and you're like, "Holy goodness gracious." Everybody listening knows the account, and then people start leaving and he doesn't chase them down. I think if I was preaching this weekend and a group of people misunderstood me and they just left, I think I'd be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me explain." He doesn't explain anything which bothers the American Christian psyche. Because I mean, as Americans, how many times have you heard this, "The American people deserve to know?" Well, that ain't in the Bible. God owes us zero explanations because he can do whatever he wants. And so he doesn't explain it, and he could have explained it in one second. I mean, come on, as good post resurrection Protestant believers, you and I can explain this in about three sentences.

"Hey, man, he's talking about the gospel and he's going to institute this thing called communion. And you don't have to bite him on the bicep. It's going to be this little wafer thing and it ain't even going to be wine in most places, it's going to be a little light Welch's, okay? Don't worry about it. You're not going to be cannibal. It's going to take a minute at the end of the service." What he's saying is, "If you don't know the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, then you got no part with me." He explains nothing. And then he looks at Peter, he looks at all the 12, but he says, "Do y'all want to leave too?" And the reason is because they're like, "Yeah. I mean, we've made a horrible career..." Look, you're into getting people in the right seat on the bus.

I think they're thinking, especially Peter is like, "I've made a terrible career decision. I think I need to go back fishing with my dad, man. I mean, we're getting canceled. What are we doing?" And then Peter evaluates it. "Okay, so what am I going to do here? You're talking about something that doesn't make sense to me. If I were you, I don't think I would do this." And as he looks around the landscape, his answer is what gets me through it when God doesn't make sense to me. And his answer is simply this. When Jesus says, "Do you want to leave too?" He goes, "To whom shall we go? You're the only one that offers eternal life." And then he says, "We have come to believe and know that you are the Son of God." Now, most of us want to know and then decide if we believe. Peter is saying, "Nah, listen, I believe, and to walk away from you is to walk towards something else. And you're the only one that offers eternal life."

And pastor in this church for 10 years, I've seen a bunch of people that don't get their questions answered and they walk away from the Lord, but they still never get their questions answered. They just get beat up and bruised, and they come back with scars. And so what do you do? The loved ones of Tim Keller right now, they are saying, "Why God?" Well, all I can tell them to do is you just pick up your doubts, you pick up your questions, you pick up your broken heart, and you follow after Jesus. And one day we will see clearly and somehow the curtain will be parted, and we will see that Romans 8:28 is still true, that he is at work in all things for the good of those that love him and are called according to his purpose. And once again, we'll go, "Look at you, God. You did it again. You did it again."

 

Christa Neidig:

Compensation is a critical component of building a great team and retaining your staff members. Talk to our team today about our customized compensation solutions or visit vanderbloeman.com/compensation to learn more.

 

Joby Martin:

Can I share my one Tim Keller story?

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Yeah, go for it.

 

Joby Martin:

I get invited to speak at a conference that JD Greer was hosting. JD's a dear friend, and he and Tim Keller were pretty close. And so he invites me to come to speak at this conference, and I always ask who else is going to be at the conference for many reasons. But he was like, "Tim Keller is going to be there." And I literally, on my agreement said, "As long as I don't have to preach after him." That's literally what it says. The only way I'm coming. Well, Keller preaches twice, once before me and once after me. Look, man, I don't get intimidated very easily. I definitely don't lack for confidence, but you've heard me preach. I mean, it's a little bit of the Blue Collar Comedy Tour meets Romans. And then Keller gets done and sits on the front row while I'm preaching, and I thought, "Oh my gosh." It was the most intimidating thing I've ever done in my life. And then afterwards, he's so incredibly gracious, so gracious man. I mean he said very nice things to me, which he didn't have to say, but it was awesome.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

I was 27, starting doctoral work at Reform Seminary and taking what classes were available. And ironically, the first class I took was Church Revitalization from Harry Reeder, pastor at Briarwood who died in a car wreck yesterday morning.

 

Joby Martin:

Oh gosh.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Crazy. Biggest church in the PCA, flagship church. He taught me and then I took this Preaching to the Post-modern World with Tim Keller and Ed Clowney, and I had no idea what I was in for. I'd heard a couple sermons. We had a little front yard, and when I mowed the front yard, I listened to like a PCUSA pastor because their sermons were short. And if the backyard was big, I'd listened to a Tim Keller sermon on the backyard, longer thing. But what I didn't foresee was his ability... People would argue with him just to say, "I argued with Tim Keller." His ability to articulate his critic's point of view better than they could.

 

Joby Martin:

That's right. Yeah. He didn't do the strawman. He did the steelman.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we could go on and on with stories, but he pointed a lot of us back to the miracle worker and not the miracle, right?

 

Joby Martin:

He did, man. And he also helped give us a framework that there was this gospel truth and here's how the rebel rebelled against it, and here's how the religious rejected it.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

That's right.

 

Joby Martin:

And then here's how the surrendered person to the gospel was impacted by it. I always thought that was so brilliant.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Yeah. Yeah, it was just a fantastic class. Look to the Rock was the main text. Fantastic book if people haven't found it, Alec Motyer. In any event, I owe a lot of what little I know of preaching to him. I know you've been affected by the gospel project and you see it in this book because in the book you're not talking about the miracles, you're talking about the miracle worker. And I think that readers will find, if you were surprised at how well the first book did, the second one's going to do better, and I just wish you the best as you and the next rank up... I remember when we met. I must have been the 10th alternate to be a moderator in a focus group and it was with Larry Osborne and Steve Stroope and me and all these young guys, and you were one of those. And now I notice you're convening the group of lead pastors.

Joby Martin:

I am. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:

I guess that means we're getting older, but you want to talk about how you're pouring into some of the younger guys around now?

 

Joby Martin:

Yeah. We've been blessed at our church too to... We were able to purchase a retreat center a few years ago. It's a couple few thousand acres up in South Georgia. It was actually like Calvin Coolidge's Camp David back in the day, this a place called Calvin Bluff, used to be a quail lodge, and then it came up for sale and through a crazy series of events, we got it. And I think the problem with adult discipleship is adults quit going to camp. And so basically we bought church camp for adults and we take about 2000 Eleven22ers through there every year. In fact, right now, my wife's running a women's retreat there. Well, we also leverage it to host about, I don't know, probably take three, 400 pastors through there. And so Carrie Williams, who is an Eleven22 and one of the original founders of Eleven22, she's now the CEO of Leadership Network.

So I mean, we're just doing some of the things that were most foundational to me in the role that I am now. And I've been doing it a minute now. I'll turn 50 this year, so maybe I'm finally qualified to pour into some other guys. I'll tell you, I've been married for 23 years and my wife, she ages like wine. I age like milk, just chunky and white. You know what I mean? And so good gracious... I do, especially since planting a church, it'll make you age like a banana. Comes at you quick, but we've got some experience and we don't know what we're doing, but God's breathing on it and we've learned a thousand ways of not to do things.

And we've stumbled upon some things that, at least for us, seem to be working and we're just trying to share with other guys... The biggest thing we're trying to share is that, "We're for you. We love you. There's a community here." I mean, because all the guys you met... I am still in constant contact with you and Larry and Steve Stroope. I mean, I can call any of you at any time for all kinds of things. And all these years later, you guys immediately answer and have been so helpful over the last 10 or 12 years. And so we want to be that for some other guys too.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

That's good. What is it? What do they say? "Why is it that wisdom is wasted on the old?"

 

Joby Martin:

Right. I've quoted you for so long that everybody on my staff thinks I made it up, so I just don't let them not think that. But I mean, one of the things that you said, it was off record, but I guess I'm going to out you, you were like, "Look, guys, you're going to marry your lid or a launchpad." Remember that? You held a whole talk about who you're married to. Larry does the same thing. He talks about the difference between calling and potential, particularly when your kids only have one dad and your church is going to have plenty of pastors. And so there's so many things I learned from you guys and continue to learn from you guys that I get to implement, which has been really helpful.

 

William Vanderbloemen:

Well, it's been awesome to watch what God's doing through you and to hear what's going on at Eleven22. Keep doing a little bit of work for you here and there and every time we come back, we see... You have five more canvases... You navigate campground. So if you're not familiar with Eleven22, I think you should check out the show notes. We'll put all the right links in for books and blogs and that sort of thing. And I know you're busy, we're in the middle of a busy season and you could be doing a lot of other things, Joby, but to take time and pour into the people that listen to this means a lot. So I appreciate you taking a minute and visiting with us about your book.

Joby Martin:

Yeah, man, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all you do, bro, for the Kingdom.

William Vanderbloemen:

Oh, sure.

Joby Martin:

I mean, you're one of the most kingdom minded guys I've been around and we appreciate it.

William Vanderbloemen:

You need to get out more. Oh, so listen, if you're listening for the first time, go to vandercast.com, give us your email address. We won't send you an offer for a salad shooter against Tsunamis or anything like that. Just send you the show notes and you can keep up with all the great friends that I've gotten to make over the years and maybe meet some new ones as well. So thanks for joining us today. We'll see you again soon.

 

Christa Neidig:

Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website vanderbloemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.