PODCAST | Transitioning Staff Well (feat. Ben Stapley)

Resources:

https://www.benstapley.com/blog

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, manager of marketing and business development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, I get to talk with Ben Stapley, executive pastor at The Life Christian Church. This is part two of our two week series with Ben. So make sure to go back and listen to part one in case you missed it. In this conversation, Ben shares the importance of maintaining healthy and smooth transitions of departing staff members. He shares tips on operating when a staff member departs and how to communicate that to the rest of your team. We hope you enjoy this conversation. Hey everyone, thanks for joining us for week two of this series with Ben Stapley. Ben, thanks for joining us again,

Ben Stapley:
Christa, thanks for having me share with the Vanderbloemen crew. Looking forward to this conversation with you again.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, so this week we get to talk about transitioning staff well. This is something I think with staff turnover on the rise over the last couple years post pandemic, I think the rates are like what skyrocketing high. It's something we see so much and organizations, I think of all sizes, all over are seeing this, in ministry based organizations and corporate based everywhere. And so I think this will be so applicable.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, I'm excited to share about it and also look at it from a multi-pronged approach where in the past I'd always look at, as a supervisor, I would always wonder, oh crud, what does this mean for me? But I oftentimes want to take the bigger perspective. What does it mean for the whole organization and also the micro perspective, what does it mean for the departing staff? And instead of, what are my worries, what are their worries? How do I continue to manage and lead them well to the very end? And instead of thinking about my needs when I got that two week letter, a two week notice letter slid across my desk, how do I take advantage of all those three things well, and transition it well for all three parties, the supervisor, the organization, and the staff member?

Christa Neidig:
No, that's great. And I can't wait to dive into those parts in a minute. Something I just wanted to mention before we dive in is, William and I talked about the other day, the idea of retention and the idea of how retention looks different than it used to. I think, I don't want to age anyone, but I would say people, my parents and older stayed at a job for 30 years. They would get the gold watch at the 30 year mark. And people my age now and younger and as people are entering the workforce, they stay at jobs not near as long as they used to. And that's just I think becoming the new normal in a way. I think that can always be really terrifying for organizations right now. What do you think?

Ben Stapley:
I love this conversation. For me, I usually say especially for a younger person coming on, how can we make this successful for them for the next three to five years? And at five years, they don't have to leave, but I'm anticipating they may hit a ceiling, we don't have a new opportunity for them. They like a new challenge, they may be leaving at that point. So to me, I'm already thinking in terms of that, but I'd love to know from you guys, do you guys approach it from that perspective as well, that turnover is higher so you just have to assume it and lead accordingly or No, no, no, we need to get him back to the 30 years because that's the only model that works well and that God approves of?

Christa Neidig:
Yeah. Well William and his book Next, he writes this tagline that every pastor is an interim pastor and we say that a lot around here. He jokes with lots of different things. It's an interim season, interim jobs. Everything really is and I think we've really had to push in that mindset now more than we even knew of when that book came out. And I think we're learning kind of how to operate in that new normal and the pros and the cons and what that looks like. Which I think you talked about some of the benefits and some of the also cons and the hardships of that. One of the things you and I talked about a little bit before this was you mentioned the new hires and the transitions after COVID. And why don't you talk a little bit on that. You shared a story with me earlier, I think the audience would love to hear.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, so I've been the executive pastor now at my church, The Life Christian Church in West Orange, New Jersey for about a year. And when I first came on the founding lead pastor had been there for 30 years and I would ask people different things of, what's our approach to this? Or philosophically do we consider this or where's that file? And I got a lot of shrugs and I don't know. And then I started ask around saying, how long have you been here for? And someone said, three months. And then someone said six months and someone said nine months. And I was like, has anyone been here for multiple years? And I realized that two thirds of our staff were there, and this is a year ago, were there only post COVID as a staff member. And so there was a unique tension for us as the lead pastor being there for 30 years.
But the vast majority of our staff not knowing those glory pre COVID years and operating in ignorance was, hey, well how do we first of all get them up to speed and resource them and then also look at, do a quick SWOT analysis and see that there is some weaknesses. They're not carrying that organizational knowledge forward, but there's also some unique opportunities because they don't know how it was done in the past. And when we're looking at church and we need fresh perspectives and the same playbook is not going to work for the future. That was perfect because they didn't know what the playbook was. And so they just looked at the present and said, we need to solve these problems now, not the past problems. So we're not pulling in a old model of ministry, we're going to bring a new one. So I think that's really helpful for any of the LPs and XPs listening, if you have a young staff realize that a SWOT analysis, there are strengths and weaknesses. Figure out what the strengths are and lean into those.

Christa Neidig:
No, I think that's great. There was a couple things you mentioned that I just think are funny. I think it's interesting the agility that a new staff brings and the opportunity, because we always joke that churches love change. No church wants to change. And when you staff come on, it's a perfect opportunity for change.

Ben Stapley:
Yes. Are you saying that tongue in cheek that because most churches don't like to change?

Christa Neidig:
Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah. And I'm sure we're deviating here all over the place, but I'd love to hear your feedback on this. I find that staff members most influential seasons are usually three and three, the first three months that they're there and then three years after that. So the first three months they're there, they don't know what's going on. Why are we doing this, why don't we change this? And they have no idea what the sacred cows are and they're overturning all the tables, which is great. And then they get into a rut and they just kind of do what everyone else is doing. And then they finally get some competency and learning curve and then they develop outside of that and can take it to a new level. But in that three month period, you have a great opportunity for them to say you have fresh eyes, what would you change automatically? And if you're not leveraging your staff, your new staff hires and not giving them a voice into that, you're missing out on their fresh eyes, their fresh perspectives and the fresh opportunities they'll bring to your table.

Christa Neidig:
I think that's great. And then I think another thing we talked about was on the opposite end of that, of retaining staff and how important it is to retain staff. And something we've learned as we've gone through those transitions is that having staff that have been around, there's historical knowledge that they bring that the new staff doesn't know. How do we do this? How do we handle this? We haven't been here before. Whereas people who have, oh, we've navigated this. Oh we've planned for this.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, both those in tandem are great. That historical knowledge and those new opportunities together are going to help your church face those new opportunities and overcome them.

Christa Neidig:
Great. Well let's go ahead and dive into this article that you wrote. I want to talk about some of the points, but I just think these are really interesting things to consider as we go into this conversation. The first section, you mentioned three different parts, talking to the supervisor, the organization, and then to the departing staff is to the supervisor. And you talk about leaving versus going. So when staff is leaving and the difference between them leaving but them going and how we can celebrate that, let's dive into that.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah. So as a supervisor it can feel a bit personal because you're leaving me and you can be tempted to be only introspective with this opportunity. And there may be some of that. They may be leaving you for a cause and for a reason. And if so, you need to figure what that is and address it and change it. But they might be leaving you or they might be going to another opportunity. Another way to say that is it push factors or is it pull factors? And so don't view things from your own vantage point and be selfish, overcome your feelings and realize there's other factors at play there as a supervisor. I think there's the old adage, right, people don't leave organizations, they leave managers. Well sometimes they're not leaving the manager, they're just going to a new better opportunity that you cannot provide them. So kind of suss out what that situation is. Is it truly you, respond to it and if it's not, let it go and don't be so thin-skinned when a staff member leaves you.

Christa Neidig:
Right. And I think by taking this approach, you have the opportunity to be able to celebrate them really well and be able to thank them for all of the time they've given you and what you did get out of them for the time they were there.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah. Yeah. It's great. So beyond looking at yourself, looking at them, how to set up their success for them to leave. I've seen, generally speaking, I've seen churches do this from my own experience and from others, do this kind of maybe I'd say mediocre or even to be frank poorly, where when someone leaves, it's kind of like, well there's the door and don't let it hit you on the way out. Instead of celebrating them, that they gave their best work here, they advance the mission, they accomplished what God wanted to do in their lives. And so to celebrate them really well, not only for their sake but also for the sake of your organization down the road. Whoever's leaving your organization, they could be an advocate or an adversary for you.
So are they going to say, yeah I worked at this church. They were a great church, I love them. You may want to consider attending or working there, et cetera, et cetera. Are they going to be an advocate or an adversary? Oh my goodness, it was worse. I gave my two weeks letter notice and my manager would not make eye contact with me for the last two weeks there. They were unwilling to give me the letter of reference. They spoke badly about me behind my back. Whatever it is, choose the high road even if the staff member who is leaving is not choosing the high road and celebrate them well on the way out. It makes the situation so much better for everybody.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. Let's talk to the organization then. I think there's some benefits you mentioned in your article and we've touched on a little bit, but I think there's a few benefits that organizations can be really strategic and they have good opportunity to make evaluations on their org chart. Let's talk about that because I think this is a good thing to think of.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, so it's tempting when someone gives you their two weeks notice to not panic and say, we need to get that job posting on the website immediately and we got to post it on social media and announce it this coming Sunday and kind of get in panic mode. I always tell organizations and supervisors, pause. What is really the best road for you moving forward? So before you automatically just think about rehiring, is the position still needed? Has it changed? Can it be delegated to other people? Is it a volunteer opportunity?
So at some point we stopped hiring buggy whip manufacturers. Right. We stopped riding buggies, and we stopped needing the whip to move the horse forward. And so at some point they stopped rehiring. That there might be a position in your organization, I don't know what it is, but it's no longer needed. And you could better allocate the funds in relationship to that or you could step up your volunteerism, you could separate the position and give it to different people. So I always say pause and figure out what your needs are and then address that instead of just automatically going into rehire and let's keep this thing moving forward, especially in this post COVID era where we need to be a lot more nimble. This gives organizations an opportunity to reassess their goals and do they have the right staff to accomplish those goals.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, that's great. Hiring is getting harder and you need the right people to accomplish your mission. Learn how we can help you find the right people for your team today. Contact us to get started. We would love to help. Ben, let's talk about planning for this. I want to talk about how organizations can be ready because it's inevitable. Eventually you're going to deal with a transition staff, whether it's good or bad. What are some ways that we can have a plan for that?

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, I again learned this by doing it myself where someone transitioned out and they were a high capacity leader and they served in a high role and we were scrambling in terms of, okay, what communication do we send to who? Who needs to be in the loop on that? When do we do it? How do we cascade it down accordingly? And there was no playbook for that. And so then quickly after that, I was at a church was a staff of about a 100. We created a quick template for, okay, if it's a executive level leader, this is what we do. If it's a middle management, this is what we do. If it is just a staff member who doesn't have any direct reports, this is how we handle it. We were always able to deviate around that, but we at least had a playbook, which is also really helpful as well, where sometimes somebody leaves the organization and there's this big fanfare, right, and then somebody else leaves who's on a peer level, nothing is said.
It's like, wow, did they do something wrong? I don't know. So treating people equitable is helpful. And then also realizing how you do it based upon where your staff members are at. If you have a tiered system or maybe it's just the same system for everybody, but at least giving you that playbook is really helpful. And then beyond that playbook as always, coach churches and supervisors is to come at the replacement plan with multiple options. So sometimes you put all your eggs in one basket. Right. We lost this worship leader and we need to replace them with this worship leader and you make all these plans and inroads for it and this person says, nope. And then you're like, we have nobody and we were putting all the eggs in this basket and they said no.
And so I always approach it with, okay, I'm going to have a plan A, B, and C, and then if this one doesn't work out, I can move this one quickly and I can keep things moving on parallel tracks even sometimes so that, because when you're looking to replace somebody, it's not a do you want to? And then yes I do. It's a negotiation. It can take some time. So if you're just pursuing one person in that process, which may take weeks or even months and then you come to the end of that process and they say no, then you have to restart that whole process with somebody else. So I really encourage parallel tracks when you're looking for replacement so that you at least have multiple options you can consider.

Christa Neidig:
I think that's great. I love that you touched on communication because I think if you say too little, it leaves people to wonder and it leads to gossip and talking and do you know, do you know. And if you don't act fast enough, word spreads. That's no secret. Especially in a church. And we always joke, we have an open office concept and we're like, there's no secrets around here. Everybody knows. So I think it's great to just take that leadership approach of even when it's hard, putting the effort into communication because that's the way you can have transparency with your congregation, with your staff, not hide anything and not let it become even harder than it has to be.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah. And even though this is, it's kind of a little obvious, but I want to state it, that as wider the audience the communication is the more shallow the information is. So you're probably the most, if you're looking at pyramid, the lead pastor or your executive team, a small circle of people are going to get most of the information. They're going to get the skinny, the full details of what's happening, and then maybe the staff gets a smaller sliver of that information and then the congregation gets even a smaller sliver of that information. So not all the information is appropriate to give to all groups. And then in terms of, I like to say cascade it quickly. So generally speaking, I usually like to do it within a day or two. So if someone's transitioning, okay, going to communicate it to the executive team in the morning, to the staff in the afternoon and then a email is going out to the volunteers that night.
So everybody's on the same page rather quickly. And there isn't did you hear about? No, I didn't hear about that. We've all heard about it on the same day. It really minimizes that gossip game that the enemy would love to step in there if you're, here's the other adage too, I like to say is if there's an information vacuum people will, their natural disposition will not fill it in with positive truths. They're going to fill it in with negative assumptions. So you put the positive truths in that information vacuum and it will minimize the amount of negative assumptions that get put in there.

Christa Neidig:
No, I think that's great. And I think that pyramid example you mentioned was a perfect way to show respect to the outgoing employee. No one needs to air out dirty laundry. The way to respect them is to nip that in the bud and not allow people to wonder or assume. I think that's a great point. Let's go ahead and talk to the staff. We've talked a little to supervisors, to the organization. I want to talk about that departing staff that's leaving. Talk about that topic. So let's start with retention, is your first point is to try to retain them.

Ben Stapley:
Yes.

Christa Neidig:
We always say that the most expensive hire you'll make is the wrong one. And that staff transitions, they're expensive. You spend a lot of money, you spend a lot of time and you burn out your team as you're going through transitions. And so it is important to retain your staff.

Ben Stapley:
And I would love to know your take or Vanderbloemen's take on this, because I know there's differing opinions where I worked at the church before and the executive pastor had the mindset of if you've given him the two weeks notice, he would never counter offer. Because if you're not fully committed here, I don't want you on our team unless you're like 100% committed here. If you have any leniency, any doubts, you're not the right fit for us. Which I personally have a hard time with that because no organization's perfect. No job's perfect. There's always going to be a little bit of doubt there. And so if you had a bad employee and they give you your two weeks notice, then count that as God's grace upon you and don't try to retain them.
But if you had a good or a great employee and they give you your two weeks notice, and the first thing I would do is but sometimes I forget this, is try to retain them. So what is the reason that you're leaving? Is it all pull factors? Were there any push factors? Is it just because we weren't compensating you enough? And what's the new position compensating you and can we have that conversation? You did a phenomenal job here, I'd hate to lose you. Even if you do not, even if that person has made their mind and it's clear they're not going to be there, having that conversation makes them feel the appropriate level of honor that they should. So I would, if they're good or they're great, I would try to retain them even if you know can't, because they're being offered twice as much in the secular workplace, still doing that makes them feel honored. So I would try to do that for anyone departing.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, I have an example actually, and I think it really depends based on every situation, on every person, on what kind of employee they are, on what value they were on, on how much you're wanting to hold onto them, and the reason they're leaving. We have an employee, and I'll mention the name because we've talked about her before, but Gayle has worked for us four different times. And William, he has hired, we have hired Gayle four different times. And the funny thing is, but every time she's left, it's been not for a bad reason. She left to have a baby twice and she left and wanted to do motherhood and then once kids were in school, she was able to do more. They moved once and then they came back. It was these reasons that weren't bad. She wasn't wanting to leave us, we weren't wanting her to leave us, but reasonable explanations for a move.
And William, he says, I should write a book on how to hire your employees back. And I think that's a huge testament to culture, to retention. So it really does vary on every situation. Of course, Gayle's quite an exception. We have not had that happen often. She's probably the only employee that can say she's come back four times. But you never know. You never know what the situation is.

Ben Stapley:
Yeah. I think you've stated well. I'm, again, I'm painting with broad brush strokes and saying, try to retain them if they're great. But it really does depend on the circumstances. A lot of factors going in. But if all those factors are pointing in a positive place like a Gayle, then yeah, try to retain them. And if not, if they come back to you and it's a good situation for both of you, then make the rehire. Don't feel a false sense of woundedness that they needed to leave because their life circumstances change. Don't hold that over them. If now is a good time to rehire them, go for it.

Christa Neidig:
Right. Let's talk about, you mentioned celebrating them well as they're leaving. Let's talk about celebrating them well. How can we do that? What do you mean by that? What's the benefit of that?

Ben Stapley:
Oh, I had a friend of mine who transitioned out of church work and he was there for a decade and he announced to the congregation a month in advance. They had the farewell service and he was interacting with the lead pastor. They were going to host together. He said, how do you want to do this? And the lead pastor said, Hey, why don't you talk about your time of enjoyment here and then when you finish, I don't know, I'll reciprocate to you. And then we'll have people stand up and greet each other. So the staff member said, I loved it here, yada ya, best 10 years of my life, disappointed to leave. And then turned to the lead pastor and the lead pastor said, okay, why don't we all stand up and greet one another and ended right there. And that broke my heart. It still does 10 years after the fact, recalling the story of a friend of mine.
And so that person was not celebrated well, and it took a while for them to unpack that. And so we talked a little bit about this in the other podcast, but how do we celebrate staff members well? How do we view what God is doing larger than our small context in our own individual church, but in the big C capital church, how do we view it from that perspective? How do we even view it from an eternal perspective that ultimately we're going to connect again in the kingdom of God and how do I hold my head up with honor realizing that I treated you well on the way out and not even, oh I didn't gossip about you. I was neutral. Not even that, but I celebrated you because even though it's disappointing to lose you, because you were awesome, I'm still really pleased with what you're doing here and I can't wait for us to connect again in heaven and hear about what God did with the rest of your journey. How do you take that posture and celebrate the person?
I just think it's just so liberating for all people involved, the sending church, the receiving church, the supervisor, the staff member to celebrate these people instead of just showing them the back door. I almost feel you can't over celebrate them well. I had somebody who was, we were discussing this slash arguing about this and they said, well, if you celebrate them so well, it may encourage other people to leave. And I said, no, no, I disagree. Because if your a type of organization that celebrates people well as they come in, while they're there, and while they leave, that's a healthy organization. And I want to stay here longer because I saw how you treated somebody leaving and you treated them with dignity. Well, you're going to treat me with dignity here while I'm here, or even when I leave. I want to commit. I was thinking three to five. Well now I'm thinking eight to 10 because I see the type of culture that's here and I want to be a part of that for a longer duration.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. Ben, these have been so helpful and I think great insights for churches to hear. I think when we think transitions, we get scared, we get nervous, we don't know how it's going to affect the church, the congregation, our ministry. And I think these are just really helpful insights that I really hope our listeners will take to heart today. So thanks for joining us. Ben, where can people resource more of your content?

Ben Stapley:
Yeah, if you want to go read more on this article or others I've written, go to benstapley.com/blog. I'd love to connect with you there.

Christa Neidig:
Great. Thanks again, Ben, for these two conversations we've had on this series. I really enjoyed it and I think it's going to be so great for our listeners.

Ben Stapley:
Thank you so much for having me.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcast, to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.