PODCAST | Searching In The Right Places (feat. Will Klotz)

Resources:

https://info.vanderbloemen.com/bad-hire-calculator

https://www.vanderbloemen.com/culture-tool

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, our COO, Jennifer Paulson, sits down with Will Klotz, our Client Relations Associate. Will shares about his position at Vanderbloemen and the benefits of using a search groom. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Jennifer Paulson:
Hi everyone. It's Jen here and I'm with Will. Will, how are you doing today?

Will Klotz:
Good. Good to be with everyone.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yes. So Will, we're here to talk about really why to hire Vanderbloemen for your search, but I kind of want to take a step back and talk a little bit about your story.

Will Klotz:
Oh yeah.

Jennifer Paulson:
So you've been with us now for five months, is that right? You came on about July?

Will Klotz:
Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Paulson:
And this was a big move for you guys. You moved down from Virginia?

Will Klotz:
Yes.

Jennifer Paulson:
And how has been your time at Vanderbloemen so far?

Will Klotz:
It's been great. So sort of my story coming in here, I have been in ministry for a number of years leading up to this. Went through seminary, pastored, planted a church through Covid and all of that. Our family was growing. We were a little weary in ministry as far as engaging in that as our full-time job and were kind of praying and considering what the Lord might have for us next. But a thing that I've always loved about ministry leadership is leadership teams. So watching different people with their different giftings be utilized to advance the kingdom. And so a cool thing that drew me to Vanderbloemen is to be able to play a role in helping make teams whole, helping get the right people in the right seats so that churches and organizations can thrive. So that was a draw and that's been a really fun part of being here.

Jennifer Paulson:
I think one of the things that was interesting is you were talking about being weary in ministry. We have dealt with a lot of pastors lately who are also feeling weary in ministry. We're interviewing a lot of people for positions at Vanderbloemen, and that does come to the forefront. Why do you think this is a specific time in the world right now where it does seem like pastors are feeling more drained than ever?

Will Klotz:
So the obvious answers are the pandemic and then the subsequent controversies. So I was even reflecting with my wife last night about some of the different sort of groups that lined up in our church and navigating that can be really complicated. The workload during that time was really hard. I can see for my season of life, William talks a lot about this gap in hiring, that there's kind of the age group after the millennials. What's after? What group are you in general?

Jennifer Paulson:
Oh, the stakes for finding out. So I'm not quite a baby boomer. I think I'm a generation X?

Will Klotz:
Yes. So we've talked about before that there's a lack of Gen-Xers in ministries. So you do have a lot of people that are maybe younger. I've got little kids that are trying to manage a young family, a growing church, and that can be a wearying thing. So that's a big part of it. And I don't know what else God's up to with that, but I know ultimately it's going to be good.

Jennifer Paulson:
Well, and you're in a position, you're on our Client Relations Team and you interact with a lot of churches on a daily basis who are looking to fill positions that pastors may have left because of weariness, may have left to do to other issues. What are you seeing right now when you're talking to churches? What are some of the biggest issues that they are dealing with?

Will Klotz:
So I can list a few. One is just the broad blanket statement that just hiring is hard.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yeah.

Will Klotz:
It's just hard. It's hard to find, let alone the perfect fit, just people, even a group that's even mediocre that could maybe step into the role. I'm just seeing that. And it's not just finding people that's hard, but often maybe it's a senior level position. Doing the search process as a search team is hard. It can have a lot of difficulties and frustrations along the way. I'm seeing that a lot where churches are struggling in that. I'm also seeing something that saddens me out there right now. William talked about this recently on a podcast, is just the lack of youth pastors that are available. So you can look at any stats on the state of our youth right now, struggling more than ever. And there's fewer people who are eager to engage in that work than ever. So that's something that we're seeing right now. Those are a couple things that come to mind.

Jennifer Paulson:
This is a little bit off track, Will, but I'd be interested in your opinion on why do you think we do see a lack of youth pastors? Why do you think that right now it's a time when maybe a lot of people are stepping up to be senior pastors, but when you're looking to fill these youth pastor positions, churches are having a difficult time. They're coming to search firms like us for this.

Will Klotz:
Yep. I think there's a few reasons. One, the same way that senior pastors had some burnout from the pandemic, youth pastors did just maybe a little bit of a smaller scale with their youth ministries, same complications, same controversies, they went through that. Another would be the opportunity to step into a more senior level role is more readily available. There's more opportunities to plant churches, be a campus pastor, those sorts of things. But then maybe even at a baseline, there are a lot of people that just don't see how important and how critical of a calling that is to step in and be, again, not even just a youth pastor in a church, but to shepherd even youth in high schools and kids that are struggling. I don't know that enough people are sort of sounding the alarm on how important of a work that is right now.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yeah. I've heard a lot of stories lately about people who became Christians in high school or in college and a lot of times it was a result of maybe a sports coach or something, but a lot of times it's a result of a youth pastor.

Will Klotz:
Right.

Jennifer Paulson:
So they are so critical in getting people on the road to Christdom.

Will Klotz:
Yeah.

Jennifer Paulson:
A question I was going to talk to you about is what type of churches are you seeing? So you talked a little bit about some of the issues the churches are dealing with. We kind of have the reputation at Vanderbloemen of only working with large churches. Is that true? What are you seeing? Tell me about the size of churches that are reaching out to you these days.

Will Klotz:
So I can give a couple examples on that, because I have also heard that, well, Vanderbloemen is for the megachurch, or sometimes people try to portray us as being very corporate and not understanding sort of smaller grassroots churches. So since my time I've been here, I've worked with one of the largest churches in Houston, helping them find a very specific role. I've also had the privilege of being on Zoom calls with tiny churches in Iowa that have 2000 people in their town. They want more than anything else to reach people and they really need a new senior pastor and they want help. So from 50 people in Iowa to 10,000 people in Houston, everything in between. If there's a need on your leadership team, we're here to help with that.

Jennifer Paulson:
That's so cool. And then what about the different positions? So since you've been here and the churches that you've worked with, is it mostly senior pastors? Is it mostly youth pastors? Is it kind of a healthy mix?

Will Klotz:
All across the board. We've done a number of senior pastor searches since I've been here, executive level, campus pastors, worship pastors, youth pastors, a middle school pastor recently came in, even kids ministry. So all across the board now. Some of those positions that are more pertaining to youth and kids can be a little bit more challenging. But again, that's why people come to us because it's not an easy search. It's not an easy position to fill.

Jennifer Paulson:
And we've recently been breaking into even schools and nonprofits.

Will Klotz:
Yes.

Jennifer Paulson:
So, did you work on the Indonesian search? We're doing a search for a school in Indonesia. There's quite a demand for good headmasters of Christian schools and not a lot of firms out there that are dealing with those positions.

Will Klotz:
We have seen a lot of schools reach out and contact us since that time. I'm sure Eric Jensen would love some more Indonesian [inaudible 00:07:44] ones from around the world. So a lot of schools have contacted us asking for help. A lot of nonprofits, I think of one, we're in conversations with a crisis pregnancy center in a large city that needs someone who's going to be really dynamic for fundraising and they need this. There's a very specific role, a very specific kind of skill to be able to do it. And we're going to be able to help this crisis pregnancy center, Lord willing, find the right person.

Jennifer Paulson:
Something William told me when I joined about a year ago is that we're really good at the DNA match. So some search firms maybe specialize in different areas, but what Vanderbloemen specializes in is Christian companies, Christian churches, but also being able to match that fit. So like you were talking about the crisis pregnancy center, getting to know exactly what kind of person they're looking for, the culture, the values behind their business, and then to be able to match that.

Will Klotz:
Yeah.

Jennifer Paulson:
Do you have any experience? Have you seen that happen yet in any of the searches that you've been working with?

Will Klotz:
Well, I've seen prior to being at Vanderbloemen, just when in ministry leadership, when the culture is just off between people on a team, how that can even split a church when you have people who have very distinct values that are competing with each other. So I've seen the damage that can be caused when you don't have a good culture fit. But then I've also seen when you've got everybody that believes the same thing that's there for a higher calling than just a paycheck and are all sort of in unity with one another culturally, how that can just take an organization off its key. And I think William's really good. I think his book on culture, I think every pastor should read that because it really is. Besides, there's a quote somewhere along the lines of "culture eats strategy for breakfast." I think is a part of just you can have the best strategy in the world, if you don't have a good culture, it's going to really hurt your organization.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yeah. That's a really great point.

Christa Neidig:
Compensation is a critical component of building a great team and retaining your staff members. Talk to our team today about our customized compensation solutions or visit Vanderbloemen.com/compensation to learn more.

Jennifer Paulson:
Talk a little bit about search teams. So we might have people listening that are part of a search team that are thinking about forming a search team. Who do you normally see? Is there a specific representation, a certain number of people? What tends to be effective in search teams as far as you've seen so far?

Will Klotz:
So I'm newer on this and so I haven't interacted with as many as William or some of our consultants have. But what you usually see on a search team are a couple of key staff members that are going to be a part of the church or their organization, and then usually a couple members or volunteer type positions that are on there as well. You usually have someone that has a lot of experience in hiring, which can be very beneficial, but it can also be a bit of a two-edged sword because hiring in a business setting or a corporate setting is very different from hiring in a non-profit setting or a church setting. And so that can be a bit of a tricky thing where you're trying to bring a square peg to a round hole sometimes with that background. So there's usually someone with a lot of experience with hiring, then sometimes that helps, sometimes that can derail things a little bit.
Other ways that I've seen search teams get complicated is by having, one, them not being given enough authority to make the decision. They're in there, looking at the resumes trying to make it happen, and you've got other groups that are handcuffing them from really being able to be free to make their decision. Sometimes it can get derailed by having too many people on there. And then I've really learned this from William and some of the interactions he's had and just pointing out what can be so helpful for a search team. So a search team is tasked with the most important decision, especially if it's a senior pastor role. This is more important than your building committee, more important than your website designer. You're finding your next senior pastor and you have people who've never done anything like this before on a team. Having someone that can coach that team along the process, not decide who the next pastor is going to be, but walk with the team through the varying stages of the search can be enormously beneficial because a lot of times it can get derailed with people who've never done it before.

Jennifer Paulson:
That's a really excellent point. And I think our consultants do some of that work, the walking alongside. William also has a book on search committees as well. He really is an expert in this field and has really written a lot. Something that's interesting is that when William started the firm 13, 15 years ago, people weren't in the habit of using search firms for church positions. It was popular in the business world, but not in the church world. And now over the past 13 years, it's kind of become more common that churches would think about hiring a search firm. So now it's less a matter for a church of deciding if we're going to use a search firm as is the decision which search firm are we going to use. So when people are trying to determine which search firm they should go with, what are some of the things that you tell potential Vanderbloemen clients? Kind of some information that you give them to help them make their decision and what they should be looking for, maybe what differentiates us?

Will Klotz:
So the first thing is kind of this broad discussion about the benefit of having a search firm. Because again, I'll talk to churches often when they see it can be an expense, it can be a serious cost. But then what I consider, when you designed your church website, how much did you pay for that? When you did a building campaign or even a generosity campaign, how much did you spend on that? And all of these areas, even though they're very important, your building is important, your website is important, it pales in comparison to your senior pastor or your executive pastor. So if you're going to spend money and bring in people who have a lot of experience to help you build your church building, I would really urge you to consider having some people who have done this a bunch of times before help you find your senior pastor. So that that's just kind of the need of doing it.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yes.

Will Klotz:
But then, who are you going to bring in? Because that's the question. We always say around here that we think that the competition is healthy and that there's different groups that seem to do different things pretty well. When I'm talking about Vanderbloemen and what sets us apart, the first thing that I want to talk about is the level of experience. So, we talk to our clients all the time that this higher process is like you going up Mount Everest and all we are, you got to climb the mountain. We're the guide, we're the Sherpa, getting you there and back. That's our role. I would want someone guiding me on something that treacherous who has a lot of experience. And there just isn't anyone out there that's done as many searches as we have, whether it's a senior pastor search or even a youth ministry search. No one has done more searches than us. And so that's a really important thing to take in mind.
The other would be the amount of full-time effort that goes into this. Searches are hard. Hiring is hard right now. That's why people are considering search firms. The question would be how much full-time dedicated effort are you going to get out of your search group? I've interacted with some, I was speaking with one a number of weeks ago that is a pastor in a church helping to teach some classes at a seminary, and then on the side is helping churches fill positions. And so this is one person that's got a lot of plates that they're carrying and they're also trying to fill your position.
What stands out about Vanderbloemen is that our team is full-time. So, while we may not be the least expensive option out there, you are getting for the extent of this search, a full-time staff, recruiters, consultants, our marketing department, all of that is going to be full-time dedicated to your search, which I think is a big, big area that makes us stand out from some of the other options.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yeah, that's great. You were talking about the expense that you're doing with the generosity campaign or building campaign, and how much more so should you be investing in your senior leadership. I think we have a tool on our website called the Bad Hire Calculator.

Will Klotz:
Yes.

Jennifer Paulson:
And that's something that you guys can go to for free, type it in, and it just shows the amount of money that it could cost you if you hire incorrectly.

Will Klotz:
Yes.

Jennifer Paulson:
And William talks about that a lot.

Will Klotz:
It's so good. Well, I remember even one search we did, they needed a worship pastor and we kind of had this conversation about the importance of a search firm. So the staff who was really involved in the hiring was bought on board. They brought it to the rest of the board. They saw the expense, absolutely not, there's no way we're doing it. The guy I was interacting with went on the bad hire calculator, entered in how much they've spent on hiring the wrong person over the past 10 years, and it was like four years of a salary or something like that. It was an absurd amount of money. When they saw that, they said, "Yes, please help us find our next worship pastor."

Jennifer Paulson:
Oh, that's really neat. Yeah, that's a good tool. Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is what are some of the most popular questions that you get? So when you're talking to a search firm or you're talking to maybe the decision makers that are going to make this decision, what are some of the most common questions that they want to know when they're making this decision?

Will Klotz:
That's a great question. So they often want to know what the process looks like. So that involves the consultant that we send that spends a lot of time there with the team learning the culture. So they're not just learning the job description, that's easy, learning the culture and who's going to be a really good fit for this. So we talk about that. We talk about the process of all the work that the recruiters are doing, just digging and searching and persuading that they're doing to get the very best candidates there. We talk about our vetting process. We talk about what it looks like when we've brought candidates to their door and how to help them now select one and make them a part of the family. And then even the guarantee. So the process is a big thing that comes up.
People often wonder, well, what if we find a person on our own? How does that work? And we try to communicate that it's best for us to be in partnership there and to work together to consider if that person is the right one for the job. They'll sometimes ask questions about what separates us from other firms. I'm trying to think of-

Jennifer Paulson:
Timeline, maybe? Does that-

Will Klotz:
Timeline is a big one. Yeah. That's always contingent on the position and even the location. There's a lot of details that can go into that. Timeline is a big question. We often tell people you're probably looking at in the neighborhood of three to six months is typical. We've seen some come within a month. We've seen others go a lot longer because of some complexities in the search. So it can be in that range.

Jennifer Paulson:
I think something else that differentiates us and might be a question that you get, too, is that we actually send consultants to your church and some search firms do everything virtually and it's going to be more difficult for them to do that DNA match or that kind of culture fit. Talk about what the consultants bring to the table on these searches.

Will Klotz:
So there's like phases of their life that they bring to the table. The first would be their years of ministry experience. So all of our consultants have vast experience in church ministry, school, Christian education, even consulting in the nonprofit world. So they've just got that they're going to bring to the table to add to the other ministry experience that's already there. But then when you've got somebody who's done dozens of searches before and maybe little subtle things, a comment that maybe a pastor's wife made that ended up not working out, that just stands out in their mind as they're interacting with families who are considering a job. Those are things that you hit along the hiring process.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yes.

Will Klotz:
They have been through so many different hiring situations, so they're not able to only bring their ministry experience, which is great, they're able to bring their hiring experience. Which again, the most I've met with in terms of a search team member that's done it before, somebody who's done it once, maybe twice before, and that's very rare. Most people on a search team have never done anything like this. So you got somebody that's done a hundred searches, that's going to be a huge benefit.
Another important thing that the consultants bring to the table is just the kind of presence that they have along the process. So they're going to be there at the beginning when they gather all of this information they need to do a successful search. They're going to be engaging along the way in person with a lot of the finalist candidates. When they're down to those ones that they think could be a really good fit, they're not just going to do that over a Zoom, they're going to be in person with a lot of those. And then finally, when they're back with the search team ready with that slate of candidates, they're going to be there in person walking through those final individuals to see which one could be hired.

Jennifer Paulson:
It's a very comprehensive process. William always calls it white glove and I've seen it and it really is. And we also offer different products. So we don't just offer executive search. I think a lot of people think they're an executive search firm. We do background checks, compensation, talk a little bit about some of that consultation tips that we offer.

Will Klotz:
So a big thing is just, am I adequately compensating my staff? So compensation reports, that can be hugely beneficial, especially this time of year as you're building church budgets. Sorting that out is a huge benefit. The culture tool is a wonderful way for you to get a sense. We talked earlier about how important your culture is. This is almost a thermometer, if you will, a gauge to gauge where are you at? How is your culture doing?
Sometimes, a lot of churches, they know where they are, they know where they want to be, but they're not sure how do I staff to get there? And given the amount of staffing that we've done, we're able to come in and see. I see where you want to go, here's some consulting on how you can build your staff team to help you get where you want to be. And then a huge one is succession consulting. This is such a... And William's written at length and talked at length about this, but this is such a critical moment in the life of the pastor and the life of the church. So, to have someone that can walk you through that very pivotal moment is another one that we bring to the table as well.

Jennifer Paulson:
In terms of some tools, we talked about the bad hire calculator. We also do offer the culture tool, as you were talking about, background checks, social media checks, some of that basic stuff that you might not know where to go to. Feel free to come to us and even if we don't offer it, we can send you in the right direction.
Will, you've got a really interesting background. You talked a little bit about how you were a church planter. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you became a Christian?

Will Klotz:
Oh, sure. So I was raised in what I described as just a nominally Catholic household. Anything having to do with God, spirituality, my least favorite hour that I had to suffer through every week was-

Jennifer Paulson:
CC? Did you go to CC?

Will Klotz:
Oh, we did. We did. Yes. And I hated it. They didn't even have good snacks.

Jennifer Paulson:
Oh

Will Klotz:
It was the worst. And so I just kind of took on... So, in the story of the Prodigal son, you've got the two brothers. You've got the older religious one, but then you've got the younger one.

Jennifer Paulson:
I'm sure you were the older, religious-

Will Klotz:
Yeah, I was that younger brother. So that led me down a path of just rebellious behavior, doing terrible in school, ultimately to some pretty heavy drug use that got me to sort of some of my lowest places in life. It was at that moment that my parents heard of a program in the Panhandle of Florida. So they sent me to Florida. I know you like to go to Disney World.

Jennifer Paulson:
I do. Yeah.

Will Klotz:
So, not the fun part of Florida, the Panhandle of Florida. It was a military kind of styled program that's designed to just destroy all the pride and sort of false arrogance of teenagers. But then as that was kind of ripped out of me, the gospel was presented to me. So, I read this morning, Lamentations, that beautiful passage. Lamentations is just surrounded by misery through the whole book, but right in the middle, the writer Jeremiah says, "But this I call to mind, therefore, I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord endures forever and his faithfulness has no end." And so for me, just realizing even though I had gone to such a far, low place, the steadfast love of the Lord even met me there and completely changed my life.

Jennifer Paulson:
Well, you know something so interesting you just said, you read that this morning. You know what bible passage I was reading this morning? It was the Prodigal Son story.

Will Klotz:
Oh yes.

Jennifer Paulson:
That's what I was reading about. And, Will, now you're in such a great place. You've got a wonderful, beautiful wife and four beautiful kids, and God's really brought you to the place of abundance.

Will Klotz:
He has.

Jennifer Paulson:
Yeah.

Will Klotz:
It's amazing.

Jennifer Paulson:
So Will, just to close, if anyone listening has further questions, they want to get ahold of you or someone else on the Client Relations Team, how would they go about connecting with you?

Will Klotz:
Yep. Hop on the website. If there's a specific need, we'll help you find the person who will answer that specific need. You can always email me, WKLOTZ@vanderbloemen.com. And I'm kind of with my role, I'm privileged to be all over the country. I'm going to be in Chicago this week. I'm going to be all over the place. I would love to visit with you even to set some time up to discuss a search you might have or anything that we offer.

Jennifer Paulson:
Will's always up for going out for coffee, folks. Thank you for your time, Will, we appreciate it.

Will Klotz:
All right, thank you.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderbloemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.