PODCAST | Leveraging New Technology For Ministry Growth (feat.Matt Lombardi)

Resources:

For more information Share Talent: https://www.sharetalent.co/

Follow Matt on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sharetalent.co/

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, I get to talk with Matt Lombardi, the CEO and founder of Share Talent, an online platform that creates people-centric technologies and services to help missional organizations increase their impact.
Matt discusses how ministries can leverage technology for efficiency and growth on their teams. As a significant portion of the workforce is shifting to gig work, organizations have a unique opportunity to utilize freelancer marketplaces to fulfill their creative and technical needs. Matt shares how churches and nonprofits can use rising technology to expand their reach and have more impactful connections within the communities that they serve. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
Well, hey everyone, thanks so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to introduce you all to Matt Lombardi with Share Talent, having him here. Thanks for coming, Matt.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah, thanks for having me. Christa. Really excited to be on the show.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation and just hear more about what it is you and your organization is doing for ministry organizations and kind of this bridge that you are gaping. For people who may not have heard of you yet, why don't you go ahead and share kind of an introduction of yourself?

Matt Lombardi:
So I'm Matt Lombardi, I live with my wife and our three kids under five, down in Tampa, Florida. So if you're ever in the area, feel free to stop by. It's always chaos in our house, so always welcome to have one more. I started Share back in 2020 just pre COVID with the goal of serving ministries, Christian nonprofits, churches, with technology and services in the communications space. So what that means for us is in 2020 we started the first freelancer marketplace, which is the largest now database of Christian freelance talent on the planet. People like graphic designers, video editors, social media managers, copywriters, Google Analytics experts, all that kind of stuff.
We started that in 2020, first marketplace where a church or a ministry could come, find the talent they're looking for, get proposals, get bids back, message back and forth, pay the person out. Really our vision was, "Hey, could we make finding the right talent for your church as easy as getting an Uber?" And so since then we've developed a few other tools that are also in the space of serving churches and ministries with these communications kind of talent and services. And so that's the quick rundown on us. Happy to talk more about launching a company in the pandemic or any of the places this leads today, Christa.

Christa Neidig:
I was just about to say, I always forget, you started right in 2020 before things took off, but what good timing for this kind of thing. I'm sure there was a lot of chaos during that time.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah, I was on a potential investor call when we both got the alert that the NCAA tournament had been canceled and both of us were checking our ESPN app, which probably says something about how the conversation was going, but we had a very knowing look of, "Yeah, I don't think this is going anywhere. We should probably shut this down." So yeah, it was chaotic, but it was fun. I remember we came up with the idea, we incorporated January of 2020, so right before the pandemic had a few early conversations with churches and Christian nonprofits about, "Hey, here's the idea we're going with. It's going to be remote teams, they're all outsourced, they don't work at your physical building."
And Christa, I had so many church leaders who just looked at me and said, "A church will never work with someone on Zoom." And then four months later it was hilarious because they're sitting there going, "Well, turns out we're on Zoom quite a bit now and no one's in the office." So it was a God's timing thing. But yeah, it's been a fun ride so far.

Christa Neidig:
Definitely. I actually love that. I think it's really funny to hear kind of the history with you creating Share, and then also with Vanderbloemen, I hear a lot of similarities on the creating something new for churches. And William always shares the story when he started Vanderbloemen and he went and told his wife, Adrienne, and she kind of looked at him and was like, "Well, churches love new things, don't they? Amen. They always respond really well to that." And it's the same with when churches hear a new idea of something new, and then here we are 13 years later and it kind of doesn't feel like the new thing anymore. And I bet you you're seeing that as well. It doesn't feel like an uncommon thing for churches to consider outsourcing and using Zoom calls and remote workers.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. When we first started, that was the big challenge. It was in business customer education like, "What is this?" And especially for the church space. And now what we find in conversations is people saying, "Oh yeah. Well, we already work with someone who's outsourced on this or that." And so now we're kind of an alternative, whereas before we were kind of the first thing in. So it's been fun to see the transition. I think it's a healthy thing ultimately for churches. They're seeing a lot more effectiveness with every kind of dollar they're spending by outsourcing and being a little bit more flexible in their staffing kind of mentality. And so we're a big fan of it, I love that the space is growing. It's been really, really cool to see.

Christa Neidig:
That's amazing. So since we're talking about the future of the church and the staffing changes, let's dive into that because I think you're hitting something that we're seeing. And we're seeing it as well on the staffing side of things. We're getting a lot more people asking for fully remote positions when I'm sure a couple of years ago we would've never thought that people could do that. So what are some of those staffing trends, kind of the future that you're seeing for the church within this space?

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. The first thing to notice is that a lot of this wasn't possible five, 10 years ago. COVID extended our technology stack that we have as ministries to where now we all have some sort of internal communications chat, whether that's Slack or if you're in Basecamp or something, Microsoft Teams. That's now a given. Whereas before everything was email or it was just, "Hey, pop in the office next door." So the technology, things like Slack, things like Zoom. Now it's pretty common that most churches have a project management tool that someone from outside could just really easily plug into. The technology has gotten us to a place that's made it easier, so that's kind of the first thing to clear the ground and that's why we got here, I think, plus COVID obviously, but the technology stack has allowed us to accelerate that.
But then in terms of what we're seeing in trends, the biggest thing that I'm starting to see and that I'm constantly trying to preach to churches who will listen is there is a massive shift because of technology, where we're seeing churches start to insource soft skills and outsource hard skills. So they need to be hiring for those soft skills things that you really can't teach or that you can't go take an e-course and learn. Things like emotional intelligence, things like self-awareness in a leader, things like a leader's ability to build a team around them and encourage and equip. Those things have to stay front and center for your full-time in-house staff.
But the hard skills, the things like video editing, the things like project management, the things like design, a lot of the administrative work that's been done in the past, those skills are changing rapidly. And what you need to do to change this rapidly that if you're still stuck in a model where you say, "Hey, we have to hire that full-time, in-house," you're actually locking yourself in with team members that could be obsolete in just two to three years. And then you're stuck in a culture problem because you've got a team member who's not feeling like they're in a good place because they know that their value is not there, they're unmotivated. That generally is going to be not a great thing for your team.
And so we're just trying to preach and we're starting to see more church leaders realize, "Hey, these hard skills, these are things we can outsource. Those are things that change rapidly, and so we need to be able to have contractors for that." But those full-time roles have to be so dialed in on great soft skills, that's not enough anymore to be like, "Well, he's not a very good leader and people really don't like him, but darn he's good at Excel." That's not a thing anymore that we can have on our teams, at least for those full-time folks in-house. So that's one of the biggest trends that we're seeing in staffing right now.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, no, that's so great. As far as kind of going another step further, we're seeing technology, we're seeing all these things change, but I want to talk about a trend we're seeing that you probably have seen as well is as the next generation of leaders is coming in, the shift there with how we even do work, even in a church setting and a values-based business setting compared to where it used to just be like, "Oh, well, corporate does it this way, it won't ever affect the church," and now it is. So let's talk about the next generation and what they're wanting, what changes you're seeing.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. So a few big macro ones that I'll hit on. The first thing we're seeing is flexibility, they all want flexibility in the work. There are some leaders who are literally rolling their eyes right now because they're like, "Oh my God-"

Christa Neidig:
I know. They're like, "I don't want to hear anymore."

Matt Lombardi:
"I don't want to hear about a four-day work week, I don't want to hear about how we need to have more snacks for people, all this kind of stuff." And I get that, I really do get that because it's such a different framework. But that next generation, if you want to connect with them as team members and if you want to potentially hire them, they are far more focused, I would say, on efficiency. And this is what I mean by it. They believe that they want every hour to have impact of the work they do. So if they feel that they can get all the impact in four days, then they want that fifth day off to go do something else. They don't want to just sit in meetings endlessly just because, "Well, we have a meeting on the calendar." They want every single hour of their day to have impact.
And so what they figured out, which is true for a lot of us in churches, and I've worked in churches for a long time, we do have a lot of time that isn't necessarily impactful. We do have a lot of times where we have meetings, and meetings, and meetings to discuss about committees that could form a committee. And what the next generation sees is, "Hey, that's just not a good use of my time." And they value their work-life balance, they value their mental health, and so they want jobs that are flexible enough to understand that every hour has impact. And if that's a three-day work week, if that's a four-day work week, if that's flex time where, "Hey, I can work a non-traditional nine to five schedule, but I can be in for the mornings and work once my kids go to bed," that's one of the huge trends we're seeing with next generation staff members. They want that flexibility. So that's one. Is that something you guys are seeing, Christa, as well?

Christa Neidig:
Well, it's actually interesting. I was just joking because before we even started recording, you and I were talking about how we're so glad we're meeting in the morning and morning is kind of our productive hours. And it was interesting because even just the two of us were saying like, "Oh, until like 3:00 PM is great, that's my productive time. After 3:00 PM-"

Matt Lombardi:
"I'm done."

Christa Neidig:
"Like 3:00 to 5:00 is really tough, I can't really put meetings in that window, my problem solving skills aren't as great then as they are at 9:00 AM." And it is things like that where it's like, "Oh, those hours aren't as valuable for me because I know if I come in at 7:00, those hours are way more valuable to my time."

Matt Lombardi:
Right, absolutely. Well, and if you're able to embrace that as a senior leader, if you're in a position where you're hiring new staff members from millennial, Gen Z, I think you can do one or two things. You can either kind of be the person who's the old man or woman yelling, "Get off my lawn." That's one option. And ultimately that's not actually going to do anything with your next generation staff because they're just going to burn out and they're going to leave. And you're going to wonder why we can't keep them and you're going to say, "It's all their fault, it's all their fault." That's fine.
Or you can say, "Hey, let's try it and see if maybe they are more productive." Because the example, Christa, you know I'm an absurd early morning person. We've talked about this in person, my alarm goes off at 4:15 AM every morning.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah.

Matt Lombardi:
And I'm up working by 4:30, 4:45 until my kids wake up at 6:30 because I've got three young kids. And so those hours are really, really impactful. But if you try to put me in a normal 9:00 to 5:00, you're not going to get my best hours of the day, so you're actually robbing your organization of having your employees' best time. So I think that trend is one that's going to be here to stay. Another one that we're seeing a lot though is people who previously would be stuck in this idea of, "Well, I have to have one full-time job," now are actually refusing full-time jobs in favor of multiple contractor positions where they can be fractional with multiple organizations.
We have freelancers all the time where an organization says, "Hey, we love working with you as a graphic designer. You're so great to work with. We'd love to bring you on full-time because we're looking up for someone full-time." And just about every single time the freelancer says, "Not even interested." They would so much rather be able to pop in, pop out, work kind of on contract with them fractionally than they would actually be full-time on the ground invested with the team, which is just an interesting trend. I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, that's just something we're seeing more and more is the gig economy has had a psychological impact on the next generation of workers and they very much think in terms of gigs and, "How is this thing going to impact my work day to day?" And if it feels like it's going to be constricting, they tend to run.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, I feel like it almost feels like they're kind of trying to get away from that upper management and be able to have their own freedom over how they work, which whether it's good or bad, I'm not sure yet. We'll see as time goes on, but it is interesting to note that.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah, and I agree with you. I'm not sure that's a good thing. Actually, for the record, I am a millennial, I'm right in the middle of it, I'm 33, but I even have skepticism of I actually don't think that's a good thing. I think there's something to be said for that long-term commitment. But back to the initial point, if it's a hard skill that it doesn't matter if they're contractor or not, I'd embrace that. Some of the other things, if you're a discipleship pastor who wants to serve four churches and be fractional, I'd probably say no, that's not a good idea. But there are roles where I think it's appropriate.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah. It's interesting also a trend we're seeing that I think kind of similar, you're saying, how they're kind of averse to that long-term commitment. We're seeing that even in people who do take full-time jobs, they'll have a full-time job, but maybe for only a year or two, and then it's something else. Whereas people used to stay for 30 years at the same company and they're not doing that anymore. We don't see that. I have friends who graduated from college within the last five years and have already had three jobs.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. And it used to be that, "Hey, if you don't stay in a job at least for two years, it looks bad in your resume." It seems like that's changing. Now people are more willing to hire... The job market, a lot of organizations are looking for the best person. And so they're willing to say, "Okay, well, that's just the way things are. We'll hire you anyway." But they do, they want that flexibility in their life even when they're in a full-time role, which is crazy, but it's kind of where we're at right now.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. And so your company brings that bridge to these freelancers and the contractors with churches that can do the work and help with these hard skills, not necessarily the soft skills that we're talking about, that help create those solutions in one place.

Matt Lombardi:
Absolutely, yeah. That's kind of why we exist is to be that bridge to two churches, because oftentimes some of those hard skills, it's kind of hard to know where to even find them, right? Bad pun intended.

Christa Neidig:
Where do we look?

Matt Lombardi:
Right. Where do you even find those people? Or if you do, what churches previously have been stuck with is just kind of who is around, which is not always a good hiring practice. That's why Vanderbloemen exists is because before churches were just kind of saying, "Well, who's a pastor who happens to be in our area that the convention or our denomination said, 'Well, this person's convenient and they're local'?" And we realized pretty quickly that's not usually the best person for the job.

Christa Neidig:
Nope.

Matt Lombardi:
And so by opening up kind of national access, you're able to get the best fit for the job. And that's exactly what we're doing as well. Most churches are still reliant on, a friend knows this person or this person's a volunteer, so we can pay them a little something that's under market rate and they'll burn out in a year and they'll have resentment. And that's just been the cycle for churches on a lot of these contractor roles.
And so what we're saying is, "Hey, no, there's a nation of people who have church skills, who have worked actually on full-time staff at most ministries for our freelancers. They're US-based, they're all native English speakers, and they've got great skills. They're ready to work for churches. Here's your bridge to connect to them." That's exactly what we do. And yet again, it's bringing technology into the workforce, which is something more and more that churches are seen as a need to become more effective.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah. So on that, on the technology point, I want to transition a little bit into how that affects teams and how we kind of mix and how technology's going to impact the way we work in teams?

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. So I mean, we could go a million different places there.

Christa Neidig:
[inaudible 00:17:15] We could hit on that.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. So the main thing that I would just say is the teams that rely on technology and actually build it as the ecosystem, they've got their tech stack figured out, they're going to be far more efficient. And I always like to think of it, there's your audience probably super familiar with all these great leadership books because you guys do a great job on this. Jocko Willink has a great book where he has this mantra where he says, "Discipline equals freedom." I think something that's similar is true with technology for church teams, which is good technology equals freedom for relationship.
So if you've got good technology in place, so everyone's using Slack all the time for communication, and you don't muddy up a text thread 37 things long, and you've got the ability to asynchronous work with tools like Loom for video recordings, for screen sharing, say, "Hey, I'm working on this. Get back to this when you can." If you've got automation in place so that we're not doing a lot of manual busy work, that discipline of having a great technology stack for your team and working well within those tools to supercharge your capabilities, actually should free up so much time for true relationship. It should free up so much time for connection, for creativity, for dreaming together, for doing real pastoral work of digging into each other's lives.
And so I am not one to say, "Hey, let's embrace technology to dehumanize us." I actually think by leveraging technology wisely and in the right ways, we actually can utilize technology to become more human and have deeper relationships on our team.

Christa Neidig:
That's so great. So right now, it feels like, I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like around us, there's so many advancements in technology and everything's moving really, really fast, and there's all these new things, ChatGPT and AI, and should we AI this or do we AI that? Is this good? Is this not? Let's talk about AI a little bit and see kind of what you're saying. You may see more than I do for this, but what are your thoughts on this? What does this mean for the church? How can we do this?

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. So the first thing I'll say, which is probably going to be surprising coming from someone who builds technology for a living, is that I actually think a lot of the technology trends that make their way to us and that we kind of freak out about are almost always overblown. We almost always overemphasize how important they're going to be. And I think ChatGPT is great, it's really, really cool. I was talking with another friend who's in technology and we're kind of astounded that people are so blown away by it or that they're acting like, "Oh, AI, AI." And we're just sitting there going, "Well, it's not actually creating anything new, it's just doing a good job of copying what it thinks it should sound like." So there's not actually anything crazy happening here.
But all in all, yeah, AI, it's going to be powerful, it's a great tool, but I'm not buying into the hysteria the same way that I'm not with VR right now. I don't know a single person in my life who spends more than 30 minutes a day in VR. I actually don't know anyone who spends more than 30 minutes a day in VR. So until I start hearing all my friends saying, "Oh yeah, I don't know what happened. I lost track of time. I was in VR for four and a half hours yesterday and then I missed a meeting." Until I start hearing stories like that, I'm going to think we're a long way off in adoption. Technology is so easy to get freaked out about because we've seen way too many films about it.

Christa Neidig:
A little scary.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah, it's a little scary. So my hot take is I actually don't think AI is as big of a deal, and some of my friends are going to blast me for this, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as maybe our social hysteria is making it feel right now. And so I think it will settle down in the next year to where we realize how we actually can use it well, what are some good parameters around it, what it's good at, what it's not very good at? I think those things will start to happen. But for churches, there are some great ways immediately to leverage it now that are not scary, that are just going to make you more efficient, which is, yet again, back to the thesis of technology is a tool to enable more humanity.
So I was talking yesterday with a friend and we just figured out that pretty much the days of writing small group discussion questions are over because now I can automatically have the YouTube video of Sunday sermon run through an AI tool that's going to transcribe the whole thing and then ask it to spit out 10 discussion questions.

Christa Neidig:
Interesting.

Matt Lombardi:
And those are done. I remember I used to be a community groups director for a church out of college. And so that was a task every single week that I was doing is I had to listen to the entire sermon on Sunday, I'd go back and re-listen to it on Sunday afternoon, and then I would have to write up discussion questions for all of our group leaders for the week and think through, "Okay, how do we do this?" ChatGPT and some of these AI tools do a pretty darn good job of, they may not be as good is what I was going to say. Sometimes they're better though, but they get you 90% of the way there. Then you can kind of tweak it and hey, that's a job that was being done before. That job can go away now so that that person can get redeployed to do something that's human focused. So there are definitely ways to use those tools to be more effective.
Another thing I love with AI right now is the ability to cut up content, video, specifically short-form video as churches are looking at, "Hey." Every pastor I talk to is like, "We just want more of like we want to get the sermons out there. We want to use it for spiritual formation, for discipleship." There's a great video tool called Descript that we use, it's an AI tool, where you can literally cut clips as simple as you could edit a document on Word. No video editing skills needed. You put the video into there, it transcribes the whole thing, and the transcription is just about 100% accurate. You just cut the little... Okay. You literally just highlight the text that you want to become a clip and hit create new clip. And now you've got a clip that you can put in TikTok format, Instagram, LinkedIn, however you want to do it, and you can publish it directly to those sites. I mean, we're talking about whole teams of work that now are being shrunk into seconds of work.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah. And I think you're kind of hitting on something here with the ability to create more content, the ability to reach a little wider, the ability to kind of leverage technology as the tool that it is so that we can continue to further ministry in certain ways.
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I want to talk about kind of giver engagement and what Share is doing here. Kind of hit the transition I was hoping you would.

Matt Lombardi:
Cool.

Christa Neidig:
How you can use this content to reach more people and then leading up to this giver engagement that you're working on right now.

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. We think fundamentally that giving for the church has gone through three stages, we're in the third stage now. So the first stage of engagement with your giver in your church was cashing the plate, checking the plate, passing it every single Sunday morning. That was kind of what we did for a really, really long time. Version 2.0. Great companies 10, 15 years ago came out that started giving us the ability to give online. And if we're honest, those were great resources. A lot of churches for the first time adopted those during the pandemic. But if you actually follow that whole process, we really haven't seen much change in over a decade. It's kind of just the same checkout that's always happened and there's no real followup.
I ask church leaders all the time and I say, "Well, what happens after someone gives?" Because it's the most fundamental or one of the most fundamental discipleship steps that an American Christian will ever take. Materialism, our money is one of our, I would say two to three top idols in the United States. And so when someone says, "Okay, I'm putting down the idol to be generous for the Kingdom," if what we give them is an email receipt that essentially is just a tax document, we're treating givers like ATMs, not like people who need to be discipled. So a simple checkout process is not enough.
And so what we're saying is if that was 2.0, what we're trying to build is giving an engagement 3.0, which is to take every single person in the church who gives and walk them through content, through engagement devices like quizzes, surveys, e-courses, everything you could possibly imagine over a 52-week period. So for the entire year, people are literally every single week engaged with generosity content and with your church's impact and vision.
Christa, one of my friends, Jonathan, he said it great. His name's Jonathan Beck. I absolutely love it. He says, "When people give to an organization, they're purchasing significance for themselves," which a lot of church leaders won't like that. "What do you mean they're purchasing something?" But they are, they're choosing to gain significance by partnering with you in ministry to say, "Hey, I believe that the Kingdom of God is an important thing and I want to put my money behind it," because that makes them feel like they're part of what God's doing. It gives them significance. So when we don't show them the impact that their money has on a regular basis, we're robbing them of the value that they thought they were purchasing. They thought they were purchasing significance, and in return we give them a receipt.

Christa Neidig:
That's so great. I love how forward-thinking you really are with this. I think I read something on probably LinkedIn the other day. I think it was Carrie Newhart was talking about the giver. Do you remember the envelopes that you had?

Matt Lombardi:
Yes.

Christa Neidig:
Does anybody know how those companies are doing? I'm sure they aren't doing very well after the pandemic, because then we have online giving and this is kind of what I really do think is next.

Matt Lombardi:
Right. Well, and it's a way for us to engage our givers all year. I mean, that's what they need. They are everywhere all the time, they're on social media, they're in their SMS texts. They're looking at email, they're doing all these different things. And so why are we not shepherding them consistently and effectively? And so what we do is we're literally building 52 weeks of automation for churches. And this goes back to that technology thing. Like technology enables relationships. So we're building technology that automatically drips content to givers for 52 weeks, we segment it, we have different audiences within that. So for someone who's maybe a high capacity donor in your church, we want to leak them content and drip them content around donor-advised funds, around taxes and estate planning because we know that matters to them. That's really, really important.
For other folks, we want to say, "Hey, let's just start somewhere at generosity." So maybe there's people in your church who are at $10 a month, that's great. Let's not beat them up and say, "Well, you're not tithing." Let's celebrate that because that's an opportunity to grow them in generosity consistently through content and through intentional prompts. So one of the things I love that we're going to be building on these is one time a year we ask people in the church to consider increasing the recurring donation by 25%. Just once, just a little like, "Hey, just do it for the next month. See how it goes."
What we end up finding is, hey, guess what? People increase it and they don't even know it's gone. They don't even know it's missing. And so you're kind of giving people this opportunity to grow in generosity and it's not hard for them. And so many churches don't even know where to start on this. And so that's why we're kind of coming in and saying, "Hey, we'll build the whole process for you from tech stack all the way through the content, make it easy, make it one easy process to set up so that consistently your givers feel like, 'Okay, we're actually being noticed and we're seeing the impact that our dollars have.'"

Christa Neidig:
That's great. Matt, thank you so much today for sharing the future of what we're seeing and where technology and the church get to kind of partner and how we can continue furthering the work that we're doing through that. Where can listeners learn more about you and about Share Talent?

Matt Lombardi:
Yeah. So best place to connect with me, I'm not all over social media, I'm really in one place a lot, which is LinkedIn. So if you go to LinkedIn, you can just search Matthew, I think it's Matthew, not Matt, which is why I go by, Matthew Lombardi and find me there. I do the one thing I'm okay at, which is run my mouth a lot in there. So you can connect with me there and love having conversations with people there. And then if you're looking for more about Share, you can go to sharetalent.co. No M on that, sharetalent.co is the website. And that's where you can learn about all the different products we have, what we do, how we help serve churches. If there's ever a way we can help, it doesn't have to be being a customer, always happy to help in any way we can.

Christa Neidig:
Thank you so much again, Matt.

Matt Lombardi:
Christa, thanks so much for having me.

Thanks for listening to The Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com, to learn more. And subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.