PODCAST | How To Fire Staff At A Faith Based Organization

In today’s podcast, William speaks with Shawn Lovejoy, founder and CEO of Courage to Lead. Shawn has been coaching executive leaders for two decades in leadership and organizational health.

In this conversation, Shawn shares how to navigate the difficult conversation of firing a staff member at a faith-based organization. This topic can be tough and uncomfortable so we are thankful for his guidance on how to lovingly fire your staff.

If we can help you further your mission, contact us to get started.

Resources:

https://www.couragetolead.com/

https://www.shawnlovejoy.com/

Transcript:

Christa Reinhardt:
Welcome to Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Reinhardt, Senior Marketing Coordinator here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, William speaks with Shawn Lovejoy, Founder and CEO of Courage to Lead. Shawn has been coaching executive leaders for the past two decades in leadership and organizational health. In this conversation, Shawn shares how to navigate the difficult conversation of firing a staff member at a faith-based organization. This topic can be tough and uncomfortable, so we are so thankful for his guidance on how to lovingly fire your staff.

William Vanderbloemen:
Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're glad you're here today and I'm thrilled to let you visit again with a return guest, longtime friend, Shawn Lovejoy. Long before he was a friend, when I was just starting out, our third search ever was Mountain Lake Church in Cumming, Georgia, outside of Atlanta. And I'd heard about it, but didn't really know about it. And then this pastor, Shawn Lovejoy, which I think was kind of funny, the Simpsons were big back then and Reverend Lovejoy was going to be a client. That was amazing. You've probably never heard that, Shawn.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Never. Never ever.

William Vanderbloemen:
But Reverend Lovejoy had us out and got to know him and some of the wonderful work that had been done there. But one of the things that I noticed about his team is that they really keep short accounts. Shawn's referred to it as telling the last 10% of the truth. And we've done that for each other all the time. I mean, we've done P90X together virtually.

Shawn Lovejoy:
We have, man.

William Vanderbloemen:
So there's a lot that's happened. So I wanted to interview Shawn today and visit with him and learn, what are some of the things you've learned about firing? Particularly now that you're coaching all of these leaders all over the country and you've got coaches underneath you that are coaching leaders. This has to be a topic that comes up. So first off, Shawn, thanks for joining us today. We're really glad you're here.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Thank you, man. Thanks for having me.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah.

Shawn Lovejoy:
You've been a great friend to me and a great friend to our organization, and we're honored to be partners with you guys. I think we've done a lot of this. Your searches have really ramped up. I think that's on the hills. Many, many churches we've worked with, pressure crushes rocks and it forms diamonds. And the pressure of the pandemic caused a lot of things to bubble to the surface. It was the great exposer and the great accelerator. And you had people whose capacity issues were revealed more readily, character issues got revealed, chemistry issues got revealed and exposed. Calling issues, you've had a lot of guys retire and started searches with you guys because they're like, "I didn't sign up for this. I thought I was going to be able to coast out these last few years and I can't coast in this world we're living in."

Shawn Lovejoy:
So I think there's more of a need than ever before to objectively assess the members of your team. And when you do it privately, you usually have at least one, sometimes two that are on the bubble in your mind. And I tell leaders, first of all, if they're on the bubble and you've thought about moving them over or moving them out, and they would be surprised by the conversation, then you haven't been a good leader. Because you haven't really been honest with them about your frustrations, about their performance, about their unwillingness or inability to carry out the values. So the first thing you've got to do is be honest with yourself, and then you got to be honest with the candidate. It's really important to have that courageous conversation.

William Vanderbloemen:
So no surprises in firing, right?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. If they're surprised by the conversation, I mean, it kind of reveals, we've had an artificial harmony culture to begin with. We haven't really, really shot straight with each other. I tell team members, the commitment you should make to your team is that you're not going to go home and say something to your spouse that you wouldn't say to them. Think about it, that lacks integrity. But with the cool thing about leaning into those courageous conversations, which they should never be easy, is that it does help clarify for a team member, maybe they're no longer a fit or they're not in the right seat or you're helping sharpen and reveal character issues that they need to deal with and repent of, or get better of. All of it around is better if we'll be honest with each other.

William Vanderbloemen:
How do you start that conversation? There's so many questions that come to mind. You're coaching all these leaders. I've got my own opinions. I want to hear your wisdom on how do you approach a conversation with a guy who's working just hard enough to not get fired?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. I think those are some of the hardest ones and to sight without calls. I think having a really good systems, first of all, a really good job description helps. A really good performance and development review system helps. All that we coach and teach on. But then sometimes the less... You've heard it, you've taught it. You hire for IQ and fire for EQ. And oftentimes it's the people with the least self-awareness you've got to have these conversations with. They think they're doing okay. And you're like, no, it's not good enough. So you've got to be able to say, "Hey, I need to have a conversation with you."

Shawn Lovejoy:
But one of the things I love about the last 10% language that we use is that it normalizes the conversation. Hey, I need to connect with you. It's the last 10% type conversation. I need to share my heart with you on some things. Can we set it up over coffee? And I like doing it over a meal or over coffee. I like getting outside the office a little bit, give them a little bit more time so it's not rushed. And then say something along the lines of, "I don't want to have this conversation, but we need to have it. In fact, I think God calls for it in this situation. I owe you honesty."

William Vanderbloemen:
What's your... So with me, now, correct me if I'm wrong. But with me, I think I'm discovering the big HR mistake, the one that people repeat all the time and the one that I actually believe is true. The biggest mistake in HR, whether it's church or non-church, is people hire too quickly and they fire too slowly. Right?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
Meet somebody that they know, or a buddy told them about, and they're going to hire them real fast. Or they don't want to pay a search firm, uh oh, so they hire somebody real fast. But then the firing, it takes forever. Maybe we'll move them to this department, maybe move to that. To me, it feels like the backside of that is people just go around willy nilly firing people.

Shawn Lovejoy:
I agree. And that's the other side of it is, yeah. I have leaders say to me, William, they're like, "I don't have a hard time having those conversations. Those are easy for me." I'm like, well, you probably need be counseling for that.

William Vanderbloemen:
That's right. That's right.

Shawn Lovejoy:
You might be a narcissist. You might be a type A out of balance. If this comes easy for you, it should be difficult. And I like to say, you should acknowledge the difficulty of the conversation. If you don't lose sleep before a conversation like that, you probably need to check your spirit. Because these are real people with families, with marriages, with children, that have perhaps relocated across the country. At the very minimum, if you've hired from within in the church, you might have baptized them. They take a pay cut out of the marketplace to work for you and you're about to slit their throat. Like man, they're ought to be a sense of fear and trembling going into that conversation on both sides if your spirit is right.

William Vanderbloemen:
Absolutely. And I'm kind of wondering, where I'm seeing clients get to, where I've gotten to before with good people where the jobs run its course, or we're in a new spot and it needs time for a change, or they're under performing. It's almost like I've made up my mind that the person is no longer going to be here, but I need to be patient enough to walk through a process to execute that decision. Is that a fair statement?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think the first approach should be to point a pathway of potential success. I mean, hopefully before now you've even said, "Hey, we're not getting it done. I'm not happy. You need to know I'm not satisfied. Let's chart a path of clarity."

Shawn Lovejoy:
And the clearer you are with those kind of conversations, I have found it gives them their best opportunity to approach you. You and I both have had this happen where somebody comes to you because you've been sort of pressing in and getting clearer with expectations. They come to you. It helps them realize they're no longer a fit. It's better for them to come to that conclusion than you.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yes.

Shawn Lovejoy:
But clarity aids that. Candor and clarity.

William Vanderbloemen:
I love when we've done contracts with you guys for any number of things over the years, Shawn Lovejoy always says, "Good paper makes good friends." And I don't need TPS reports. But I'm hearing several things out of this that come to my mind. Okay, if what you're saying is true, then having a face to face meeting with the person really shouldn't be abnormal. There should be a weekly check-in, having a... Maybe we're just OCD here, but we try and we redo everybody's employment agreement and job description every year and everybody resigns it. Because the first place I go if somebody's not performing, it's like, well, what did we ask them to do? And what are they doing? And where do those line up?

William Vanderbloemen:
But tell me this. We can get down to weekly one on ones saying, "Hey man, this has got to improve. I mean, we don't want to have the next conversation." We have a formal personal improvement plan, which can run anywhere from 30 to 90 days. Those are kind of the guardrails we have. And the first meeting of the PIP, the personal improvement plan, we're telling our people, "Be kind, but you need to be so clear with the person that they're kind of surprised they still have their job."

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
Is that too harsh?

Shawn Lovejoy:
No, I don't think so at all. I think that's what you owe them. I mean, if you've been thinking it in your mind and you're thinking about letting them go and you haven't told them, that lacks integrity. So if I'm frustrated or dissatisfied to the point I'm thinking about letting somebody go, I think they deserve to know. I mean, that's almost humanitarian at some level. You need to know, I'm not happy. I'm not satisfied with where we are. I'm not satisfied with the progress we've made. I want you to win. Here's the pathway. Choose life or death, blessing or curses. I've even used that language with leaders before. I want you to win. I want you to... But you have to choose this. I have to hold you accountable.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, and I think it's choose a path that would show marked change.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. 90 days, you're right, I think is enough. I mean, my observation is you know in 90 days. Don't dawdle.

William Vanderbloemen:
I think you-

Shawn Lovejoy:
There's no 12 or 18 months here.

William Vanderbloemen:
You can't know in 30 days.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
Short of 30 days. I mean, it's like, I don't know. Do you ever try and go to the gym the first two weeks in January?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
I mean, it's cram full of people.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Everybody tries hard. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
That's right. Third week in January, piece of cake.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
Because I think people can fake change for two weeks.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
And that's just a Williamism, that's not based on science from Harvard, blah, blah, blah. That's just two weeks, you can fake it. But give it a little longer and there's... In my reviews, I tell people there's power in the pattern. Right? So there's some things that a singular infraction gets you fired. You take money from the company, you're going away, right?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
But outside of those moral red cards, you're not really looking for singular instance, you're looking for a pattern. Because people live in patterns and they very rarely deviate from them. And for me, the personal improvement plan is like, here's your chance to change your pattern and you got to show me you can do it for a while.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Honestly, though, past behavior is best predictor of future behavior.

William Vanderbloemen:
A hundred percent.

Shawn Lovejoy:
So outside of a repentance, it probably needs to be manifested publicly to you and the team, like everyone ought to recognize a difference. But the odds are stacked against them. And I've even told candidates before and counseled our clients to say, you need to tell them, "The odds are stacked against you. I mean, if we haven't been able to get this done by now, but I'm giving you one more shot. I want to believe you can do this. But at the end of 90 days, in fact, probably at the 60 day mark, we need to really sit down."

William Vanderbloemen:
So let me talk to a couple particular situations of firing and you tell me what you've been learning. So we talked about the guy who's barely doing... He's just working hard enough to not get fired. What about when you have to fire someone who's been a... Probably at Mountain Lake you had this. William helped us start the church and he was great when we were at 200, and now we're at 800. So how do you handle that conversation?

Shawn Lovejoy:
You gave me great counsel way back. I kept moving people multiple times and I remember you telling me, you said, "Shawn, move them once, my friend. If they can't be successful in two seats, what makes you think seats three and four are going to be successful?" I think managing expectations on the front end. I learned this from one of my old mentor coaches, Andy Stanley. He said, "When I hire someone, I tell them, you won't be doing what you're doing a couple years from now. Either you're going to grow and hire somebody that does what you do, or somebody's going to become your boss. You get to choose."

Shawn Lovejoy:
And I think conversations like that on the front end normalize those kinds of conversations later, so you can perhaps move them into a different seat. I tell guys, you owe every team member grace, honesty, proper placement, and prayer. But once you kind of work through that list and you feel like you've done everything you can to try to put them in the right seat, you've given them grace, you've been honest with them and they still can't get the job done, hope is not a strategy. You got to pull the trigger. You got to pull the trigger. And the longer you hold on, the more tense and ugly it's going to become. It's not going to get easier.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, I've had some people that were great. I'm trying to find a way to not be dishonest with people when I have to have these conversations, but also not put it all on them. Like you're not getting the job done. You aren't getting... I've had some great people who've either left or gotten fired or took another job, where if I had a chance to hire them back right now, I probably wouldn't. Not because I don't like them, but because we're a different company now than we were seven, eight years ago. And they had a wonderful run and God used them amazingly. But that was when we were doing 10 searches at a time and not 250 searches at a time. It's just a different day. So I think maybe I'm the person who's going, "Hey, let's break up. It's not you, it's me."

Shawn Lovejoy:
I think it's both.

William Vanderbloemen:
But I think there is [crosstalk 00:15:55].

Shawn Lovejoy:
I tell leaders it's both. I think there comes a place where they've served, they've provided all the value that they probably can provide for you. But honestly, you have now helped them as much as you're going to be able to help them.

William Vanderbloemen:
That's good.

Shawn Lovejoy:
So it's stingy on your part to hang on to them, ostracize them, not develop them and invest into them because you don't feel like they're ready for the next level. When if you'll release them, because they don't belong to you, they belong to God. They'll be able to jump under another leader with new, fresh scenery, new, fresh blood, and a leader's who's going to be able to develop them differently than you have. Everybody's happier. But the enemy keeps us from having these conversations.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yes. So how do you approach firing when there will be a family member still on staff after you fired one person? Does that make sense?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
A husband, wife, son, daughter.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. I tell leaders there's going to be fallout. It's going to be... It may not all be numerical. There'll be some emotional fallout. There'll be some spiritual fallout. And maybe some relational fallout along the way, but there's a great odds that you have numerical fallout. So you can hire family if you want to, but just know on the backside, when you have to make that decision, there's going to be some multiple movements going on probably long term.

William Vanderbloemen:
Okay. Next scenario. I remember I was a 27 year old senior pastor. How do you... Anyway, I had this guy that I was pretty good friends with, but nobody could get along with him. A volunteer, Bob Query. I can say this now because he's with Jesus in heaven. He was 100 years old when I worked with him 25 years ago. And he was our treasurer. On the board and the treasurer. I had somebody I needed to fire and Bob was just a pain to work with. He was giving our bookkeeper all kind of nightmares and headaches. Everyone on the board's like, "Bob needs to go find something else to do." So Bob was telling me about firing his... That I needed to fire the bookkeeper, because he didn't like bookkeeper. Okay, well the bookkeeper was fine according to everybody else. I said, "Well, how do I do that, Bob?"

William Vanderbloemen:
And he said, "Well, let me tell you something, William. It should never be easy. And I've fired probably 500 people in my career. I'll never forget the first time I had to fire somebody, I felt like I was going to throw up, then I felt like I was going to cry, and then I just went ahead and had the conversation." And I said, "Well, Bob, if I'm honest with you right now, I feel like I'm about to throw up and I feel like I'm going to cry and you and I need to talk." So there's got to be a better way than that to fire a volunteer. How do you fire someone that's not even getting a paycheck?

Shawn Lovejoy:
I tell guys always, always, always begin with affirmation. And I think you're right. You don't want to be disingenuous. You want to be authentic. But I mean, they haven't done everything wrong and they have provided some level of value. If you have to dig and hunt for that, do so. But I think it always softens the blow to say, "Thank you for saying yes. Thank you for your contributions. Thank you for your value. Thank you for your effort. Thank you for this. Thank you for your gifts. I'm really thankful for the time we've had together. But I think a new season is dawning for both of us and I feel like I've led you about as far as I can lead you."

Shawn Lovejoy:
I mean, I'd rather take the responsibility and assume that it's me than put it on you. And that of course softens their posture up when you're not pointing fingers and blaming and getting down in the weeds and the minutia, and going to every instance in which they've dropped the ball or hacked someone off. There's just no... When it gets there, it's not a rational argument anymore, it's an emotional conversation and nobody wins. So I tell leaders, stay out of all that. Be affirming, be generous in your compliments and your severance. And it's time. We need to agree it's time. And Dan Rylan taught me it's a great opportunity to establish high road, low road scenarios.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Hey, and the high road scenario is you and I are going to agree today. It's time. You have felt this tension in your heart. You've wondered what the future held. I feel it. We need to come to agreement that it's time and we're going to share this publicly that this is God's will. This is a good thing. And we're going to honor each other on the way out. You're going to honor me on the way out. I'm going to give you as good a reference as I can give you with integrity. I'm going to give you a generous severance. That's high.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Low road scenario, this blows up, you start throwing chairs. You go on Facebook. You blister out of here and defame my name all over the building. And that's low road and so there won't be any severance. I won't be able to give you a reference. So which one do you want to do? We can play whichever way you want to play. And I have found 99 of 100 will say, I'll take option one. I'll take option one. I don't know that I agree it was my idea, but I can come to the conclusion it's time, based on what you're telling me. And we can do this with honor and we can do it redemptively and end as friends.

William Vanderbloemen:
What's the right amount of severance?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Oh, you're a better expert than I am at. But I'm for more rather than less. And the reason why I'm for more is because it's going to... As you well know, it's going to take 90 days or more to fill the position anyway. So there's that. You can try to save some money, but I like generous severances because frankly, Jesus' principles being harmless as a dove and wise as a serpent. You have leverage with an exit plan that includes a severance, that's paid out over time, that establishes that high road scenario. And frankly, a couple of times over the years, I've had to call a couple people and say, "Now, wait a minute. We chose high road. That post on social media is not high road, my friend. I love you, but that could nullify our severance and I don't want to do that."

Shawn Lovejoy:
And it nips that in the bud immediately. So we actually don't lose by the longer severance. If done right, it gives us some good leverage and accountability to maintain the high road, for at least 90 days to six months.

William Vanderbloemen:
Okay. Okay.

Shawn Lovejoy:
That's what I think.

William Vanderbloemen:
I tell people there's some variables. The longer a person's been there, the longer the severance should be, as a general [crosstalk 00:22:59].

Shawn Lovejoy:
That's great advice.

William Vanderbloemen:
If they had been there a year, that's one thing. But here's where this is a really unfortunate part of the conversation for some of our listeners. If you've been a pastor of your church for a long time and you've had people your age there for a long time, and some of them are aging out of their position, you better start building some severance into your budget so you can afford to get... My general rule of thumb is you should not overdo it, but you should probably get pretty close to being in trouble with your church for being too generous.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
Let the word get out that you gave them six months instead of three or whatever the right number is called for. Of course, this is where people are taking the high road and we're not talking about a red card and we're not... But I would take your high road, low road one more step. I think now that the world is as hyper connected as it is, you almost have to ask the person leaving to extend the non-disparaging comments, right, no posts or whatever, to your family too.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
You can't have your kid going on the youth forum post. I mean, you just can't.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. More commonly the spouse.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. Yes. Well, it's a covenant we're making, to protect each other and to honor each other. And I want us to pray over this. I want us to commit to God and to each other. And God as my witness, I'm not going to run you down to the team. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to protect you the best I can, but I need the same courtesy.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, and I think part of that protection both ways is something written down.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
How do they know you're really going to pay out that severance?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
Like, look dude, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm going to put it in writing so you can take it home and say, "I have this if we walk away on a high road." Because it's going to be a hard day at home, right?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
Whenever this happens.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Well, and frankly, I tell guys, whatever you're saying to that candidate in that moment, all they hear is we're going to need to agree to part ways. Everything you say after that, it's a blur. They're not really listening to everything you say so you better have a really good exit agreement you follow up with, with signatures. That includes an often overlooked piece, what I call a communication plan. Who's going to tell who, when, and where?

William Vanderbloemen:
And what.

Shawn Lovejoy:
That's really, really important. That needs to be part of the exit agreement.

William Vanderbloemen:
I think you need to decide... This sounds fabricated, but what is the story that we're telling everyone?

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
And that doesn't mean what are we hiding from everyone? I'm just saying, you don't need to be telling one narrative and I'm telling another, unless we just don't agree on what the narrative is. And now you're moving more toward the low road than the high.

Shawn Lovejoy:
It's family business. You just don't tell all the company all your family business. There's another version that's appropriate for guests and we need to decide, what is the appropriate amount of information we want to share with people who don't know us like we know each other? I think we can agree on that.

William Vanderbloemen:
Super good wisdom. Listeners, don't take everything we're saying as golden rules.

Shawn Lovejoy:
No.

William Vanderbloemen:
Like for instance, question we get all the time, we had to remove someone from the pastoral staff, how much should we tell the church? That is a great question.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. But that's got a million different little variables.

William Vanderbloemen:
What did they do? Were they working with children? Well, then you're probably going to have to tell everything that happened. Or is it, their marriage is in trouble because they can't get along and they got married too young and they're probably going to end up getting divorced. That's not everybody's business. It's just not. So it's like, you got to use some wisdom to know when and how. And on the separation agreement, it's just a little rabbit trail. Email me if you need help with that, because that's... You're getting into a legal realm there.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yes.

William Vanderbloemen:
Like for instance, if the individual that you're firing is over 40, they need to be able to look at a severance agreement in almost every state for seven days before they have to sign. You have to give them a quiet period. It's because of some case law that happened where people claimed ageism while they're trying to get rid of the older people. If they're under 40, it's a shorter amount of time and we've actually developed totally free boiler plate separation agreements that do exactly what Shawn's talking about. Communication plan. Also adding a little thing in there that, what happens when we quit paying the money, what leverage do we have? In our separation agreements, we make sure to put a clause in that says in signing this, you're allowing me to speak freely about you on reference calls.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah. Because you can get sued.

William Vanderbloemen:
You can get sued.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah, you can get sued.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, they know I just gave William license to talk about me for the rest of my career.

Shawn Lovejoy:
That's actually a good little piece of accountability for both parties.

William Vanderbloemen:
It is.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen:
It is.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Hey, I know we got to go, but I want to share you this because this is important. I don't know if I've ever even told you this whole story. But it's worth 60 seconds. Okay?

William Vanderbloemen:
Go.

Shawn Lovejoy:
We haven't talked about it often, but I had to fire a guy that you placed for us. Great church, great resume, was crushing it. He came onto our team, this is when I was a pastor. You know bits and pieces of the story. I ended up having to release the guy. Caught him in a string of mistruths and we gave him grace the first couple of times, like misinterpretation, miscommunication. Told him, "Hey man, things aren't adding up. If we can't trust you, we can't work together. There can't be another one of these." We began to string it all together. He was not telling the truth about where he was, what he was doing, what he was working on, wasn't performing well.

Shawn Lovejoy:
So I call him in and I have one of these tough, courageous conversations. I'd moved this family across the country to be part of our team. He served with us two years and this is where we were. I'm like, what's wrong? I felt like a failure, whatever. So anyway, we hug each other, we cry. I release him from the team. He leaves a little bit with his tail between his legs. Ended up at a couple of churches. He's now in the real estate business today. He calls me up about a year ago, William. And he said, "Hey, I'm just, God's working in my life, doing amazing things to me. I never told anybody this at the time, I had some chronic health issues because of a car accident. I got on pain medications. When I landed at your church, I was addicted to pain medications and it was affecting every area of my life. I never told anybody at the time."

Shawn Lovejoy:
He's like, "But you dealing me the blow that you dealt me actually was the best thing ever happened to me because I realized I've got to get healthy. And I opened up with my wife about my addiction issues and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And man, we had a revival. This is like seven or eight years after I released him from my team. He called me up to say, "I love you. I'm sorry. You actually did right by me by not allowing my performance and habits to go on unchecked and it was the best thing ever happened to me."

Shawn Lovejoy:
So just another reminder to me, you do the right thing as best you know it and God's will, and you can trust him for the outcome. He called me not too long ago, this is weeks ago, and says, "We're going to go back into vocational ministry. We believe we're healthy now. We believe we're ready for this. And I want to know if I could use you for a reference." And I said, "Absolutely, my friends."

William Vanderbloemen:
That's so good.

Shawn Lovejoy:
They can't get better than that, William. Stories can't get better than that. I couldn't make one up better than that.

William Vanderbloemen:
It can't. And if you're out there saying, "I had to fire somebody, I'm a failure." No you're not. Shawn just told the story. I mean, yeah, we've done 2,500 searches. There's some every now and then that don't work out. You know? And if they don't work out in a short enough time, we come to it again for free and all that.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Which you did, by the way. You did that for us.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, we try and stand by the work. But I was talking to a guy recently who had to tell his very young church staff, church staff's almost all in their 20s, that the senior pastor had been having a long term affair. He was going to end up getting a divorce and they had to fire him and let him go. And the staff, he could tell, they looked like they had failed somehow, because how did this happen when they'd not done anything? And one of the people came up to him afterwards and said, "Hey man, we need to build a system where this doesn't happen again. What can we have that will keep this from happening again?" And my friend said to him, "We can have the rapture."

Shawn Lovejoy:
Right.

William Vanderbloemen:
That's what will keep this from happening again. We are in a broken world with broken people. I mean, I go home some nights saying, Jesus, you just have the most interesting taste in brides. I wouldn't have done this for us. And just keep that in mind and stay encouraged, if you're feeling like I got to fire somebody again. As long as you're looking in the mirror and making sure you don't have to fire everybody, you're not the reason everybody's leaving. It's a broken world and these things happen. So I hope that this conversation has helped you. It's helped me. And Shawn, I just, I appreciate you taking the time to join us today. I was going to have staff come and join us, but I told them I was doing a podcast on firing and nobody...

Shawn Lovejoy:
They all got scared.

William Vanderbloemen:
Well, who wants to be on that, right? Yeah. Hey man, thank for joining us so much.

Shawn Lovejoy:
Thanks for having me, my friend.

William Vanderbloemen:
Yeah. And thank you for joining us as well. If you'll go to vandercast.com, you'll get in a little segmented email list that just sends you show notes and what's coming up so that you can keep up and catch a bunch of good links, including courageouspastors.com, courageousleaders.com, so you can learn how to get a coach. Every leader needs a coach. And I'm glad, Shawn, that God's using you to do that for so many right now. So thanks for tuning in. God bless you and we'll talk to you again soon.

Christa Reinhardt:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. We at Vanderbloemen help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our latest episodes. Thanks for listening.