PODCAST | How To Hire A Worship Pastor (feat. Greg Atkinson)

Resources:

https://gregatkinson.com/

Worshipimpressions.com

Firstimpressionsconference.com

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, senior marketing coordinator here at Vanderbloemen.

Christa Neidig:
In today's podcast our very owned VP of marketing, Michael Buckingham, talks with Greg Atkinson, bestselling author and international speaker. He has been in ministry and organizational leadership for 28 years and has been writing, speaking and training leaders since 2000 in this conversation, Greg shares some background into his worship experience and some ideas on what to consider when it comes to hiring a new worship pastor. We hope you enjoy this conversation.

Michael Buckingham:
I'm really excited today to have my friend Greg Atkinson with us. Greg, I don't know if you remember, we got touch bases. I think it was in Florida at an AG conference. I mean, this is years and years ago. I mean, it's got to be 15 years ago. We had lunch at a little cafe shop, so I'm just really glad that we stayed connected and things of that sort and really excited to have you on call today and the podcast and two channel and all that good stuff. You wrote recently, not recently, you actually wrote an article quite a while ago about how to hire a worship pastor. Talk about that article a little bit and some of the insights that you brought on that.

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah. Thanks for having me and glad to be back on your podcast. We actually met, it was a long time ago, maybe even 2005 or '06. Long, long time ago. But yeah, it's good to be back on the Vanderbloemen podcast. Yeah, I wrote an article. I was a worship pastor for 11 years, my degree's in worship and then was around worship ministry for 20 years. Used to be a technical director and producer, and was just around that world of producing worship services for two decades and still have a hand in it somewhat. And in producing a conference and all and working with worship people. But yeah, I got asked a while back, what questions should I ask when I interview a worship leader and I started writing and I didn't stop. And the next thing I know, I had 99 questions to ask a worship pastor when you hire them.

Greg Atkinson:
And it just really highlights how complicated it is to hire a qualified, competent staff member and why search firms exist, like Vanderbloemen and others, to be able to help people navigate these hard things. Because a lot of pastors don't think through. They just think, hey, we want somebody to fill the music on Sunday, but they don't realize all that goes in nowadays in 2022 into leading a modern band and tracks, do you have a click track? Do you use any monitors? Do you have a click track going through your ear? And can you lead a band? Do you play from an instrument? They don't think about stuff like that. They just think, hey, we want somebody up front. And the reason I know it's so important because having been a worship pastor, I know very well that the two people out of the entire staff that the congregation sees the most is the lead pastor and the worship pastor.

Michael Buckingham:
Yep.

Greg Atkinson:
The executive pastor might get paid more, but he is not seen more. Most people don't know who the executive pastor is. Most people never see him, couldn't tell you their name. You have churches of hundreds or thousands where attendees come every week and they do know the worship leader.

Michael Buckingham:
Yep.

Greg Atkinson:
They have no clue who the executive pastor is. And I say that in love, because I do a lot of stuff with executive pastors. But the two faces that they know are the worship leader and the lead pastor. So you want to get the worship leader right. You want to make sure that you make the right decision. And that's something that you don't want to rush and you don't want to skimp over because it goes back to biblical examples of Lucifer and Satan and Lucifer being a worship leader in heaven and the divisions that happen. And I can remember being a worship pastor and people coming in my office to complain about the lead pastor. And I would say, "His office is right down the hall, go talk with him."

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Greg Atkinson:
But they would always try to put a wedge between the pastor and worship leader, because again, they're the two most visible staff members.

Michael Buckingham:
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I think it's because they are seen so often, and it's easy to view them only as the people that are leading worship. But they're also leading volunteers, they're leading the entire band and they're also a worship pastor. So also pastoring people at the same time. We love our executive pastors and they certainly play such a key role. But you're right, it's the worship pastor and that senior or lead pastor that people are seeing on a constant week to week to week basis and having so much interaction with. So it's a critical part. To me, it's one of the things that I love about Vanderbloemen is that, yeah, we're going to need to hear their audio. We're going to need to see their worship because you got to be able to lead great worship.

Michael Buckingham:
But there's so much more to a great fit than just your skillset. And it's all those DNA matches that we spend so much... We spend so much time getting to know the people, both at the church and then the candidates to make sure that fit is just perfect. We equate it to a heart transplant. You got to have a great heart and a great body, but if those don't transfer and connect perfectly, it's not going to fit and it's not going to work. So it's so critical that you get that hire right.

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah. And as you guys know and probably have done studies on, or I'm sure William has written articles about, if you make a bad hire that you lose so much momentum in morale when you have to go to replace somebody and let somebody go or fire somebody. And the whole starting over process, it really hurts the church. It makes them go backwards if you have to replace somebody. And so you want to get that right. As you said, they're pastoring people. A thing that I talk about in the article, it's just 99 Questions To Ask When Hiring a Worship Pastor, that you can find on GregAtkinson.com. But one of the things I talk about is, do you know anything about sound, video and lights? Because most churches in America are 200 people or less. And so in the typical church, that worship pastor is a combo position.

Michael Buckingham:
That's right. That's right.

Greg Atkinson:
Where not only does he do music, but he's over the tech team. So like when I was a campus pastor at a multisite church, my worship leader, who I hired, had no experience with leading a tech team and sound, video, lights and production. But I could tell he was a learner and he would work his tail off to learn it. And he did and he took them to a whole new level and got really creative with lighting and stage, set design. And that's something else, stage design.

Michael Buckingham:
Oh yeah.

Greg Atkinson:
You think of Jonathan Mann and all those guys that have all those resources. But he got up to speed and he's a great guy, but a lot of churches are going to ask you to oversee everything under the arts.

Michael Buckingham:
Right.

Greg Atkinson:
So you're going to be over music, worship, sound, video, lights, production. Some churches, first Impressions, hospitality. I'm a first impressions guy, that's what I'm known for. But there's a lot of churches where it's the worship pastor who that falls underneath him. Also communion, baptism, all that falls under the worship pastor. They have to be a leader of teams. I call it a capital L leader. They have to be, and this is in my questions, are you an equipper? Yeah. Are you a doer or an equipper? And so they have to be an Ephesians for equipper. They have to be a capital L, leader. They have to oversee baptism teams and communion teams and everything that makes a Sunday happen. And then you get into programming and production and using tools like planning center and planning out your services.

Greg Atkinson:
Some churches plan it out, down to a minute, down to a second. They have, this is going to happen at this many minutes and this is going to happen at this many minutes. And then you get into scheduling and scheduling a band. And then the other thing that a lot of pastors don't really think about that a worship pastor has to be competent with is auditioning new talent. And so being able to bring a new bass player onto the team or a new drummer or a new electric guitarist or a new keyboard player, or vocalist. I always auditioned vocalists. I'm not just going to hand anybody a microphone and let them start singing. I had to have auditioned them and heard them sing. And so some people don't have the leadership gifting and the personality to run an audition. They just think, well, I'm not going to tell anybody no, so everybody can come up there.

Greg Atkinson:
And then it sounds like a train wreck. It sounds terrible because they didn't have the ability to look somebody in the eye and say, "No, you're just not a good fit. Maybe you should serve somewhere else." But I audition everybody. Yeah. Doesn't matter if you're a vocalist or instrumentalist, you are going to audition to be on that stage. And you've got to have that leadership gifting.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. It's interesting. At the church I was a staff at, up in Atlanta, their audition process was really cool because you auditioned and you practiced with a team, but you didn't go on an actual service for quite a while because it isn't just about your ability to sing or play. It's also, who are you as at heart and how are you with people? It was harder, right? It was harder to get people on the team because it took longer, but it really made for such a beautiful, beautiful fit.

Christa Neidig:
Hiring is getting harder, and you need the right people to accomplish your mission. Learn how we can help you find the right people for your team today. Contact us to get started. We would love to help.

Michael Buckingham:
Hey, you earlier talked about your conference and First Impressions and it's actually interesting, I was just talking to Jason Young about customers and calling them guests and things of that sort. So talk to me about the conference that's coming up and just your heart for that First Impressions team.

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah. I have a big heart for First Impressions. I've been consulting since 2005 and I started my own secret shopper company in 2009 called Worship Impressions. And you can just find it at worshipimpressions.com. But we've worked with the largest and fastest growing churches in the country and worked with over 200 churches and helped them get ready for the weekend. And so I come in and I do a guest services evaluation. And so Jason Young is a friend of mine. He's spoken at the First Impressions Conference, at least three times, maybe four. I can't remember, but I know he's spoken at least three times, but we have a fall conference coming up in late fall, November 2nd through 4th. And we're going to hear from some guest services, I call them gurus and experts and authors, the go-to guys that are consultants. So we're going to hear from the goat, Thom Rainer, who has consulted with over a thousand churches and written tons of books on hospitality that I have behind me on my shelf.

Greg Atkinson:
And we're going to hear from Danny Franks, who's at J.D. Greear's church in Raleigh, North Carolina, the Summit, who's over at guest services. We're going to hear from Mark Waltz who wrote the book, First Impressions, one of the first things I read about the subject. We're going to hear from Brooklyn Warren who's with NorthPoint Ministries and worked with Jason Young and worked with Jeff Henderson. We're going to hear from Jeff Henderson.

Michael Buckingham:
Awesome.

Greg Atkinson:
We're going to hear from Nona Jones. We're going to hear from Dave Gibbons, my old friend from visiting him to West Coast, back when I first met you all those trips I used to take to the West Coast. Dave Gibbons, pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, we're going to hear from him. We're going to hear from Carrie Williams, the CEO of Leadership Network.

Michael Buckingham:
That's awesome.

Greg Atkinson:
Going to hear from some amazing people and leaders and Ben Stapley. I was just talking with him today.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. Just spoke with him.

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah, I know you guys were just at an event together. He's going to be speaking again. And we're adding a couple of new speakers, now that we're completely virtual. We made a pivot in a decision because of the economy and inflation and rising airline cost and gas costs. I was looking at how... I was talking to some sponsors, some of our sponsors that go to conferences and they were telling me how much their flight costs have increased over the last year.

Michael Buckingham:
It's crazy. Yeah.

Greg Atkinson:
It is, yeah. And I've flown here recently and the tickets are astronomical. And so I thought we want to reach as many people as possible. So why don't we do what we've done in the past? Take travel out of the equation, make it a virtual experience. And so now you can just go to FirstImpressionsConference.com, click the register button, register for free and watch it online for free. You can sit at your home, your office, your iPad, your phone, your computer, your Apple TV. I watch it on my big screen TV with Apple TV, but you can just sit wherever you want to sit. You can sit with your team and the auditorium, play it on the big screen. We have a lot of church staff that watch it together because there's something for everybody.

Greg Atkinson:
We cover children's ministry. We cover security. We cover worship, preaching everything with guest services, hospitality, and First Impressions. But we're going to hear from some lead pastors like Terry Smith in New York where he's the lead pastor at Ben Stapley's church. And he wrote the Hospitable Leader, which is a great leadership book. We're going to hear from Wayne Francis who just had a great bestselling book, come out on God and Race. And he pastors up there in New York, New Jersey where Terry Smith is and they're friends and introduced me to each other. But that's great. Going to hear from lead pastors, guest services, experts, and just across the board and it's totally free.

Michael Buckingham:
That's awesome. I love... That's huge. I mean, free. Free is free, right?

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah.

Michael Buckingham:
So tell me this. What is something new that you're seeing inside of the First Impressions movement, if you will, teams something of that sort?

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah. I think the new thing coming out of COVID, I've said this for years, it's one of the reasons I started the First Impressions Conference is that anybody who leads your guest services team or your First Impressions team, they also have to be a capital L, leader. They have to be an equipper. So let's say I'm over First Impressions at your church, I can't greet you in the parking lot and wave and then take off sprinting to the front door and say, "Wait, wait, wait, let me catch my breath. Let me open the front door for you." And then fly past them down the aisle of the church and say, "Let me usher you and seat you."

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Greg Atkinson:
You have to have a team. And so it takes dozens of people, greeters, ushers, welcome center, parking team. It takes a lot of people to pull it off. And so you need, and I've said this for years, sometimes your best greeter, the guy with the biggest smile is not your best leader and shouldn't lead the team. You need a capital L, leader, a true equipper. And so coming out of COVID where we've lost a lot of our volunteer base, a lot of churches had volunteers that did not return. You have to rebuild your team and you have to get back into that dynamic of recruiting and training, and recruiting and training and building a team back up that can sustain a weekend that can get you through. And a lot of churches will have people serve every other week, once a month, every week. Some churches like Elevation here in Charlotte, do an A week, B week, A week, B week, AB, AB. But whatever it may be.

Greg Atkinson:
At Danny Frank's church, Danny Franks is speaking at our conference this fall. Summit Church in Raleigh-Durham, J.D. Greear's church, they serve every week. He has no schedule. He does not use planning center. They are on every week. And if they're going to be off, they have to find their own replacement. That's capital L, leadership.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Greg Atkinson:
Danny Franks never worries about a schedule. He never thinks about a schedule, he never touches the schedule. He has thousands of volunteers. It's a church of 20,000, but everybody's on every week. And if you can't serve, you get somebody from either your alternate team, the opposite week of you, to replace and to swap with you. But they've managed themselves. All that to say, you have to get back to building a team, recruiting, training. Now that we can meet again and we can gather again, I want to see volunteer appreciation come back. I want to see volunteer quarterly trainings come back. I just spoke at training at a conference where seven churches came together in Indiana. I got to see Notre Dame for the first time. I went by Notre Dame and saw that.

Michael Buckingham:
Oh, wow.

Greg Atkinson:
I was in South Bend, Indiana. But I went and trained all the volunteers at First Baptist Orlando, in Florida. And so you got to have times where you get together and you train your team. And that's a morale building thing, you boost morale, you let them know why it matters and how you appreciate them. And get back to the basics of what got you where you were pre COVID. Now you've got to rebuild post COVID. And I hate that the numbers went down, but it's just the reality across the board in America and North America, but we've got to rebuild.

Michael Buckingham:
That's true. It's just true. And we talked about it as worship leaders, but even within First Impressions guest services, it's not just about the ability to greet people and be friendly, but you've got to be able to lead. You got to be able to work with volunteers and all that stuff.

Michael Buckingham:
Greg, thank you so, so much. I appreciate your time. I love all the resources that you've talked about are free. Your article's free, the conference is free. So please go get those. There will be links in the show notes. So please be a part of that. The conference is fantastic. I got to be a part of it in Atlanta a couple years ago. It's so essential that the people that are walking through your doors, whether you're a church, a school, a nonprofit, a business, they need to know that you see them and you care about them and that you can be present with them.

Michael Buckingham:
I think it's just such a valuable, valuable thing. And of course, worship pastors. If you're needing a worship pastor and you're like, yeah, Greg, you're right. It's really hard. That's what we do. So please reach out to us. We've placed more worship pastors than anyone. So love to work with you and connect with you and find the best match for you as possible. Please go get those resources, make sure you attend that conference and spread the word about that because it can really change the day for someone at your church or organization. Thank you, Greg, so much. So glad we got to stay connected again and I know we'll do this again soon.

Greg Atkinson:
Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Michael Buckingham:
You bet. Have a good one.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderbloemen.com, to learn more. And subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. Keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.