PODCAST | Fruitful Theology (Feat. Ronni Kurtz)

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Fruitful Theology

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Christa Neidig, Senior Marketing Coordinator, here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, I get to talk with Ronni Kurtz, Assistant Professor of Theology at Cedarville University. Ronni previously was a pastor in Kansas City and taught theology at Midwestern Seminary. In this conversation, Ronni talks about his new book, Fruitful Theology. He shares how the life of the mind leads to the life of the soul, and how theology can help produce the fruit of the spirit in believers. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Well, hey, everyone, thanks for joining us today. I get to talk to Ronni Kurtz about his new book, Fruitful Theology. Ronni, how are you today?

Ronni Kurtz:
I'm doing well. How are you?

Christa Neidig:
Doing good. Thanks for joining us.

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate the invite and love what you guys are doing here, so I was glad to join.

Christa Neidig:
Awesome. Well, Ronni, why don't you give a little bit of background, your experience. I know that you have worked with churches and just have some experience that I would love for you to share with our audience.

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, absolutely. I always joke that I live something of a hybrid life. And what I mean by that is, I both love the local church and being with God's people and academic theology. And my educational career was me trying to decide what venue am I going to pursue ministry in? Is it going to be the local church? Is it going to be academics? And I really just decided, at some point, as long as the Lord doesn't make me choose, I'm going to do both.

Christa Neidig:
That's amazing.

Ronni Kurtz:
And so, I did both. During my master's degree, I helped plant a church, started with nine of us in Kansas city, Missouri, and I pastored there for just about eight years. And did that all the way through a couple of master's degrees and a PhD in systematic theology. And when I finished that, I came in 2022, January, I moved to Ohio with my wife and our two year old daughter to be an assistant professor of theology at Cedarville University.
And so, this year, I've been teaching systematic theology at Cedarville University and been here about eight months. And so, it's still new, a little bit of a transition for us, but it's been really sweet. It's hard not pastoring right now. Transitioning out of pastoral ministry into full-time academic ministry is a transition, but it does allow me to live that hybrid life that I talked about, having both pastoral and now academic experience.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. I love when the Lord allows that. I feel that way and I think I'm really partial, because I studied marketing and thought, "I'll go work for a big ad agency and do that," and then was torn and my heart just broke for the church. And then Vanderbloemen popped up and I do both, which is amazing.

Ronni Kurtz:
That's amazing. I love it.

Christa Neidig:
Let's talk about the book a little bit, Fruitful Theology. What led you to writing this? I think there has to be something on your heart to get to the point of sitting down and writing a book.

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, there was a lot that was working in my soul to bring this book about. One of those things is I love theology. For me, theology has been an avenue for my affections being stirred, and getting a greater vision of who God is and what God has done, has been one of the most practical things that's ever happened to me. So you often hear about theology as this cold stale ivory tower enterprise, and it just has never really been that for me. It's always been a hunt for beauty. And one of the things that led to the book being written was, one, just wanting to invite others on that journey to, maybe, think about theology for the first time in that way, as an avenue to pursue beauty, and truth, and goodness.
And then the other is, unfortunately, it's not really difficult to be discouraged by theology right now. Whether it's conversations online, or even in local churches, just the amount of things that there seemed to be in our cultural moment to divide over. And I just felt this unity, in the name of theology, was running rampant. And even those who take the name theologian, as it was, it can be a bit discouraging to see them sarcastically commenting to one another, or back biting, or even slandering, or using theology for the applause of man instead of the glory of God and the good of neighbor. And so, I wanted to write a book that swam upstream from that reality. I wanted to write a book to show that theology, done well, contemplating the Lord and everything in relation to the Lord, should actually lead to the formation of the person, and that the life of the mind is connected to the life of the soul.
And so, really, it's really not that brilliant of an idea to be honest. All I did was I took Galatians five, Paul's listing the fruit of the spirit, and I tried to demonstrate how contemplating theology well will lead to those virtues that make up the fruit of the spirit in your soul. So thinking about the Lord should lead you to be a loving person, and a kind person, and a patient, and peaceful, and gentle, and self-controlled person. And sadly, those virtues are just not really what many people think of when they think of theologians these days. And that's what I wanted to work against is, maybe, capturing a view of theology again that leads to the stirring of your affections and the forming of your soul.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. You mentioned a couple times, it almost seems theology's getting a bad rap these days. Why do you think that is? And what lies are we believing about theology, believers, even non-believers, what things, misconceptions are we getting?

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, that's a great question. I ask in the book, what's wrong with theology today? And the answer is absolutely nothing. There's nothing wrong with theology. Theology's doing just fine as it has been since the opening salvo of mankind. Theology's fine. But what's wrong with theologians, there's quite a bit that's wrong with us. Quite a bit that's wrong with all of God's people. And when we enter in things like social media, and divisive cultural moments, it can get ugly. And so, I work through in the first chapter, a few ways that you might have seen theology misused. And maybe you've seen theology misused in terms of it being a divisive thing, where a narrowing of your convictions also leads to a narrowing of your friend group. Or maybe you've seen theology misused in that someone starts to pursue down the road of theology and they become arrogant, which should be paradoxical, or not even just paradoxical, but contradictory to Christian theology.
Or maybe you've seen theology used as an avenue for the applause of man. Maybe someone really wants attention, and theology happens to be a good tool to get the attention they want. So there's a lot of ways theology can be misused, let alone the old idea of, like we talked about earlier, it being a stale academic enterprise that's reserved for only a select few, and the real substance of the Christian life is in loving your neighbor. Dichotomizing loving God with your mind and loving your neighbor with your hands has led to, I think, a false view of theology. I say in the book that a head full of truth should lead to a heart full of love and hands full of care. And I think our minds, our hearts, and our hands are way more connected than some people might realize they are.

Christa Neidig:
Right. That's wonderful. And I think there's another part of this, which you touch on in the book of, I mean, I think theology can be almost forgotten today, because there's so many things catching our attention when we should give our attention to theology. So why is that? Why do you think Christians really need to give their attention to theology maybe now more than up ever?

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah. Yeah. I would say, to answer that question, there's a lot of reasons why I would say you should give your attention to theology, but maybe the best comes from scripture itself. If you ask me what's the underlying passage that's undergirding your book? I would say it's in Second Corinthians, primarily in chapter three, when Paul says that with unveiled face, we are to behold Christ from one degree of glory to another. And I think that's a really beautiful illustration of what the Christian life is. It is a beholding Christ. You look at Christ until you look like Christ. And theology isn't the only tool in the toolbox to do that, to behold Christ, but it's a really good one. And I think theology, done well, will help Christians get an eye full of God's glory and what God is doing in the world amongst the nations.
And so, I think if local churches would recapture a vision of theology that's after the beautiful, the true, and the good, those transcendental things that our souls long for, as a means of beholding Christ from one degree of glory to another, then it's really difficult to forget and it's especially costly to forget.

Christa Neidig:
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Let's talk more about that Christ likeness. And of in your life, how do you feel the study of theology has shaped your heart to becoming more Christ like?

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, that's great. I think, for me, there is a great thinker, reader, or a great thinker and writer, Jen Wilkin, who listeners may know, who once said, and I just love this quote, I put it in the book, in chapter one, that, "Your heart can't love what your mind doesn't know." And I think that's a good word. I think there is a direct correlation between our adoration for the Lord and our understanding of the Lord. And so, the reality, for me, is obedience becomes sweet when I understand the one I'm obeying, and understanding what he's up to. And so, as I see God work, it becomes a joy to join him. And so, Christ likeness can be really aided by the life of the mind, a robust life of the mind. And I do want to be careful, I say it frequently throughout the book that theology is a necessary ingredient for Christ likeness, but it isn't a sufficient one.
We can't equate theological knowledge with sanctification. Those are not the same thing. A sanctified believer needs, not just theological wisdom, but relational wisdom, and vocational wisdom, and ecclesial wisdom, wisdom of the church. And so, we can't mix anonymous theological knowledge and sanctification. It's not sufficient. Theology can't do that. But I do think it is a helpful ingredient, and even a necessary ingredient. And so, I think that's how they're combined. As my mind's eye gets a clear view of who God is and what he's doing, and the life of my heart gets a more stirred affection for what the Lord is doing, I will be conformed into his image.

Christa Neidig:
Yeah, that's great. I love that. I love that Jen Wilkin quote. I have that one actually written down, because it's such a good one.

Ronni Kurtz:
It's amazing. Yeah, she nailed it.

Christa Neidig:
Very encouraging. And that's a really good distinction that I think you made that a lot of people get caught up on, and I think that's an important distinction.

Ronni Kurtz:
Absolutely.

Christa Neidig:
Let's talk about, on the flip, if we don't study theology, because so much of the life of the mind leads to the life of the soul, what do we lose by not studying theology?

Ronni Kurtz:
I love this question. I think what we lose is joy. And one of the things that I try to articulate in the book as an antidote to some of the biting cynicism we see take place in the name of theology today.

Christa Neidig:
Right.

Ronni Kurtz:
Instead of seeing those you disagree with as an enemy that needs to be overcome, if we can understand those we disagree with as a fellow neighbor, who is leaving joy on the field by virtue of their false beliefs, that puts us in the position, instead of thinking of us versus them, of being able to take a posture of compassion, and love, and care of neighbor and show them, "Hey, I know you think this is true about the world and you think this is true about yourself, but I'm telling you the scripture say this. And if you abandon this teaching, you are not just abandoning truth, but you're abandoning joy. And I want you to be fulfilled, and be satisfied, and have joy, and to not leave joy on the field."
And so, to answer your question, I think what's at stake in forgetting theology, or doing theology wrong, or improper is joy. And I think we should take our joy seriously, because I think the Lord takes our joy seriously. The other thing I think is at stake is something that's pretty counter-cultural today, and that's stability. I think we are often a people who are just dealing with news overload. There are so many headlines, so many tragedies, it feels like our new cycle is just a cyclical time bomb of bad news.

Christa Neidig:
Right.

Ronni Kurtz:
And it can be easy to let your emotions drive and your emotions can be fickle and frail. And I think theology, while I do think emotions are important and Christians should be emotionally in tune, I do think theology can give you a sturdiness, a stability that is really lacking in a lot of today's world. And so, I think joy and stability are two things that are really at stake, if we don't do theology well.

Christa Neidig:
That's really great. Something to base truth off of and something that you relate to rather than just emotions that can be up and down.

Ronni Kurtz:
Exactly.

Christa Neidig:
That's really great. Tell me this, for the listeners who maybe are encouraged in a way, or if you have any encouragement for them of, "Hey, I do want that joy. I am missing out on that joy." How do I even get started? Maybe in their mindset they thought theology was that reserved thing for people. What would you just tell those listeners?

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, a couple of things. One, I don't mean to plug the book here too much, but I literally have an appendix in the book called, I'm New to Theology, where should I start?

Christa Neidig:
Perfect.

Ronni Kurtz:
That's an appendix at the back of the book. I tried to answer this question in hopes that people felt that in reading it of like, "Okay, I think I believe him. I want to do theology. Where do I even start that?" I think it helps a lot first by starting with what even is theology? And I stand in a long line of people who have defined theology as the contemplation of God and all things in relation to God. That's how I define theology. The study of God and everything in relation to him. If you think about that definition, it's important because if theology is studying or thinking about God, well, we all have thoughts of God, every single one of us, regardless of what your academic background is, or your reading levels, or how often you read, or how smart you may think of yourself. You probably have thoughts of God. And anytime you have thoughts or words about God, you are doing theology.
Listener, I don't know if you know this about yourself, but you are a theologian. If you have thoughts or words about God, you are a theologian, so that's been settled. Now the more pertinent question is, will you be a good one? And that question is still out for debate. And how we be good ones, there's so much to it. The reality, as readers might see in my Patience chapter, is theology's not microwaveable. You can't get a zeal for theology and become a good Christian thinker overnight. It is a wrestling with the Lord for all of our days. Wrestling with his scripture. Wrestling with his people. Wrestling with ideas. Wrestling with our culture. It is a wrestling that's going to take long and steadfast obedience towards faithfulness. And so, I would say, start by reading your scriptures, start by praying a lot, pray that the Lord would make you a good Christian thinker. And then get in a local church that has healthy doctrine and healthy membership that they might guide you in your intellectual contemplation.

Christa Neidig:
That's great. Thank you so much, Ronni, for having this interview with us today. Where can listeners get their hands on a copy of your new book?

Ronni Kurtz:
Yeah, they can find it really anywhere books are sold. So, of course, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, LifeWay. It was published by B&H Publishing Group, who was so phenomenal to work with. So, really, anywhere books are sold, you can pick it up.

Christa Neidig:
Perfect. And I'll make sure we'll have some links to that in the show notes for listeners that want to have some quick links to grab a copy of their own, and start becoming good theologians.

Ronni Kurtz:
Awesome. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for the invite again and thanks for all you do here.

Christa Neidig:
Of course, thanks, Ronni.

Ronni Kurtz:
Take care.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com, to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.