PODCAST | The Come Back Culture (feat. Jason Young)

Resources:

https://catchfiredaily.com/

http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/the-come-back-culture/410700

https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Wins-Roadmap-Irresistible-Workplace

Transcript:

Christa Neidig:
Welcome to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Crista Neidig, senior marketing coordinator here at Vanderbloemen. In today's podcast, our VP of marketing, Michael Buckingham talks with Jason Young, speaker, executive coach, consultant, and author. Jason helps leaders and organizations develop personal leadership, build healthy teams, and create remarkable experiences. In this conversation. Jason shares ideas from his newest book, The Come Back Culture. He shares hospitality secrets to creating an experience that keeps your guests engaged and coming back for more. We hope you enjoy this conversation.

Michael Buckingham:
I am really, really excited to be talking with you today, Jason. You've got a brand new book out. Which number book is this? Is this number three?

Jason Young:
Five.

Michael Buckingham:
Number five. Look at you.

Jason Young:
Yeah.

Michael Buckingham:
You're killing it.

Jason Young:
Well, I don't know if I'm killing it or if it's killing me. So. But I did a first book really nobody's ever heard about, which is totally fine. Maybe nobody's heard about the other ones. I don't know. But the first one wasn't for the purpose of people buying it. It was actually for the purpose of me going through the discipline of writing.

Michael Buckingham:
Oh, okay.

Jason Young:
I had heard some things about writing and I wanted to experience it. And I learned don't edit while you write. There's some things that I learned. And then Jonathan and I started really book two. We just finished. Let's see what's today? Yes. So two weeks ago we submitted book six. It'll come out in July of '23. So it just works. It works with him. He's awesome. Just the way we work together. Just the humility. I mean, he makes us better. So it's a real joy.

Michael Buckingham:
That's great. So tell everyone a little bit about your background and how you came to write a book about this subject here.

Jason Young:
Yeah. So in the church world, most of the 25 years on church staffs, also working alongside churches, helping them with their leadership development, with team development. That could be staff or volunteers. And then specifically related to this book, creating experiences that guests love. And I think for so long, we just expect people to show up, whereas you have all these companies, they invest money to have these personas. They do certain things to attract people and they do these things to keep people. And really what they're doing is they're building this culture that people feel they're a part of that love, invite other people to come with them. Hence the culture part, because if we're just building tactics and these things that we can't sustain, that's not the idea. The idea is what does it look like if internally we built a culture that our internal team loves, and then the external team loves too, or the external individual or guest.

Michael Buckingham:
That's huge. Now is the audience the church or is it broader than that? I think it's broader that, but I wanted to just clarify for everyone listening.

Jason Young:
Yeah. It's broader than that. In fact, I would say this book more than any other book we've ever written is written beyond the church.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
Perfectly appropriate for the church.

Michael Buckingham:
Sure.

Jason Young:
But [inaudible 00:03:26], being in the hotel industry, Ritz Carleton. So it's this idea of hospitality, which feels antiquated. It's an industry. But long before it was an industry, it was actually a belief and a behavior. And so it's almost reclaiming an antiquated word and putting it into our modern cultures to watch how people respond positively. Because people want to feel, and that's what hospitality's about.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. I mean, you see it in your most successful companies. I mean, it's the difference of going into an Apple store and into a Microsoft store. Even though Microsoft even makes their store try to look like an Apple store, there's an experience because I think like you said, there's culture. We know culture wins and if you're not focusing on that and you're just focusing on your product, man, maybe that can work if you have a really fantastic product. But overall I don't think that's going to work. And really, it might work for a moment, but it's not that long lasting glue. Right?

Jason Young:
There you go.

Michael Buckingham:
It's so interesting. You talk a little bit about the difference of calling everyone a guest versus a customer. Now, obviously from the church world, that's easy. We're not going to call them customers.

Jason Young:
Sure.

Michael Buckingham:
From a business world, how does that work?

Jason Young:
Yeah. I mean, some people say, "So you're saying using the word customer's wrong?" And it's like, no. I don't know that there's a right and a wrong. I think if you say the words, they feel different. So for me, that's where I begin. And the other thing is the language that you use influences the behavior that you choose.

Michael Buckingham:
That's good. That's good right there.

Jason Young:
So if I use a certain language that I call people. And again, customer's not bad. But customer feels transactional.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah, very transactional.

Jason Young:
Whereas guest feels relational. Therefore if that's the case, subconsciously I behave to support whatever the word is, you know?

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
And so for me, that's the difference. It's not to knock the word customer. I have corporate clients. They use the word customer and it's fine. I'm not going to change that animal. That's not what I'm trying to do. What I want us to think about is what are the behaviors that we want to demonstrate to that particular guest or customer in order for them to feel something, and then in order for them to respond or remain engaged with us?

Michael Buckingham:
That's good. I mean, even here at Vanderbloemen, we talk about serve, don't sell. It's really that same kind of an idea of it's your mentality. It's your focus. What are we trying to do? Are we trying to just close a transaction? No. You're at Vanderbloemen. We're trying to solve people problems for faith-based organizations and help their teams thrive. So it's not just about them being a customer and getting our product or our service. It's really about this long lasting relationship that you have.

Michael Buckingham:
I mean, obviously, the best guest experience is Disney. Right? People love Disney and they wouldn't even consider another park. I mean, Disney's where it's at for the Disney people. So you also talk about, and I think this is such a big deal in not just in working with your guests but just life in general, about being fully present. Talk to us a little bit about that a little bit more.

Jason Young:
All right. So I was doing an interview recently and somebody asked me this question and it was, if you had one idea to pick out of the whole book, what would it be? And actually, it would be this. It would be fully present because it's what you just said, Michael. The idea of being fully present, I didn't come up with. Right? I'm not that brilliant. But it's more than just doing it with a team or your guests. It's like, what if you're fully present with your family? What if you're with your spouse, with your friends, with your parents, with your neighbor?

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
And so this idea of being fully present is, if I choose to be fully present with you, I'm kind of holding up this megaphone and I'm telling everybody and everything else, "Hey, I just want y'all to know that the most important person to me right now is the person in front of me." So it's my body language. It's where I am mentally, that the other person doesn't even necessarily know, but I'm having to kind of press pause on what I'm thinking to enable them to press play, and I'm actively listening and I'm responding.

Jason Young:
I'm not necessarily there to solve everything for them. I am there to listen to them and to validate them. Because you know what, Michael, interestingly enough, and we see this more than ever before. People want to be seen in a way that makes them feel comfortable.

Michael Buckingham:
They do.

Jason Young:
I cannot do that unless I'm fully present. So you know what? Don't listen to respond, listen to understand. My wife, who's a therapist, she taught me this years ago. She says, "Jason, there's a difference when you talk about the idea of being fully present, whether body language or spiritually fully present." Right? Like realizing God's put me in a spot to do something or emotionally dispensing empathy. She says there's this idea of listening to and listening through.

Jason Young:
I'm like, okay, that's what does that mean? And she says, listening to is listening to enough of what someone says to formulate a response. Listening through is listening through their words, their emotions, their body language, their questions behind the questions you're listening through. And then at the end, maybe you need to respond. Maybe you don't. Maybe the response is you are fully present and you listened to me.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
And I said, "Which one do I do?" She goes, "You don't want me to answer that question." The reality is it's hard. There's a great book. Gosh, her first name is Kate, but I think the title is called, Are You Listening? It's put out two or three years ago. But again, it's just an entire book on listening. I'm no brilliant expert, but I think what people need most, what our kids need, what our spouses need. If you are a supervisor over one or a thousand people. If you lead volunteers. Listen. Listen to them.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
And it's amazing what it does for them, but it's amazing what it does for the relationship.

Michael Buckingham:
It's funny. I read the book, Never Split The Difference, which is a fantastic book. FBI, hostage negotiator. So I'm reading it. My wife and I are sitting on the porch. She says something, and I go into the book and I use a piece of the book and I'm like, "Oh, really? So it sounds like it's really important for you to da, da, da." And she's like, "Yeah, it is." And da, da. I'm like, "Oh yeah. So what you're saying is this." And she's went, "Hold on. What's going on? You're really fully engaged. You're totally listening to me." And I'm like, "You mean, I don't know it?"

Jason Young:
Yeah.

Michael Buckingham:
It makes a difference

Jason Young:
It does. And to make it practical, I do leadership development for first-year leaders in a particular role for FedEx Ground. And one of the things that I work on with them are in this context of being fully present, specifically listening, what are helpful phrases to say to people and unhelpful phrases that you want to avoid that could make them say, "Oh, you're not fully with me." You And so I think the idea of using phrases, like if we were to have a conversation and you were sharing a frustration, I might say something like, "Michael, that actually sounds really difficult."

Michael Buckingham:
Right. Yeah.

Jason Young:
And as simple as that is, it says, okay, you're listening. And too, these phrases are like bridges for the conversation to continue. But if we're not listening truly, we're not going to be able to say those phrases. We're like, "Oh man, that's a bummer."

Michael Buckingham:
Because we're coming to the next thing. Right?

Jason Young:
Or the famous one. This is the famous one. In fact, I just had an argument with my 17-year-old daughter yesterday because we're at college orientation. She often says, "I understand." And I hear adults use this all the time. And I think we might mean well when we say these phrases, but what the phrase says is it's actually not true because you don't understand. You've never been in my situation. You've never felt what I feel. Versus saying things like I can see how you'd feel like that. You know? And again, all of that is driven to this listening and being fully present.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. And that I always heard. It's funny. I can't tell you how many times, and it's always sales people. Let's say it's a car. I'm buying a car. And I'm like, "Hi, I'm Michael." And they'll say, "Oh, okay. So do you like Mike or Michael?" Which is a funny question, first of all because I just introduced myself as Michael. But that's fine. I'll say, "Yeah, usually Michael." And I swear nine out of 10 times and probably even more than that, they're like, "Oh, okay. So Mike, what are you looking for today?" Why do we just do that whole song and dance?

Jason Young:
Yes.

Michael Buckingham:
You know, it's so funny. But it is that whole be present, be about the person. You know, I was just on a live call with Len Wilson the other day and we have to be so much more about people. And I think even to your point, it's also about bringing empathy. So not only do I hear you, but I feel you and I may not understand, and I might not even agree. But man, that sounds like something you're really struggling with. You know, that's something we're learning to say with our kids and they're like, well, yeah. Or that sounds like it gives them really big emotions. They're like, well, yeah. Beautiful.

Jason Young:
Well, and when you think about empathy. Empathy is real. I'm trying to experience someone else's feelings. I'm not trying to solve it. I'm trying to experience what is Michael feeling. And if you're not fully present. Let's take it broader.

Jason Young:
Let's make this practical. So for the person working at a church, leading volunteers,, wants to have a great guest experience. If your volunteers don't sense that you're fully present with them, it is going to be very difficult for them to want to be fully present with the guests because the team reproduces what they experience. Right?

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. That's good.

Jason Young:
And so are you fully present with your volunteer? Does that model for them being fully present with the guests? What does that mean? What happens when you're not? Sometimes we learn from the opposite. But it really is, because people don't go, "Oh wow. Michael was fully present with me." They don't use language.

Michael Buckingham:
Right. Yeah.

Jason Young:
But what they do is they use feeling words, or they sense something different. And really that's one of the key things. That's what it is. And empathy is a massive part. That's why I always talk about leaders. Like what would it look like for us to be dispensers of empathy?

Michael Buckingham:
I love that. I love that.

Christa Neidig:
How healthy is your team? Our culture tool is a free, comprehensive staff engagement study that will help you build a winning culture. Try it out today on theculturetool.com.

Michael Buckingham:
You talk about three questions that bring you from being average or mediocre to excellent. Talk about that and also if you can touch on, because this is something I struggle with, how do you balance excellence and not going towards perfection?

Jason Young:
Oh man. Bro, everything is personal in the book, but this one's personal because let me just be honest with you. And if you're listening today, let's just be real. This is a struggle for me. This has been a struggle for me in my whole life that I have a self-inflicted burden of the idea of perfection. I don't even know what that looks like, but it is a pursuit, and sometimes it's an obsession, and sometimes I beat myself up about it. And sometimes like if I just give a talk or if I go to a church and preach, or if I write a book and I'm like, "Oh man, I did such and such. That wasn't perfect." And I kind of beat myself up about it.

Jason Young:
And I don't know, maybe you, maybe somebody listening today, you're like, 'Okay, you too?"

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
You're in good company if you're listening today and that is you. When I think about excellence, a former volunteer of mine, he was CEO of a company. And we got to talking about excellence one day because I always sensed that he was so good at it. And I said like, "Talk to me about this." And he says, "Jason, I do aim for perfection even though I don't even know what it is, but I eventually land in excellence." Yeah. And I said like, "What does that mean?" Horst Schulze talks about this. Different people talk about it.

Jason Young:
Perfection doesn't exist. Right? And so I think trying to give ourselves some compassion about that. But what does exist is excellence. And excellence is not just an idea, but it's supported with behavioral choices that prioritize the person that communicates care. So for example, if you're at a church, excellence from an aesthetic perspective. Let's just even make it really simple, cleanliness. Excellence would be I'm walking down the hallway, I see a piece of trash and I'm like, "Well, I'm not going to look down because somebody else will get it." Excellence would be, "That little piece of trash matters. I'm an owner. I'm going to pick it up. I'm going to throw it away." Right?

Michael Buckingham:
Yep.

Jason Young:
Or excellence is if I have a meeting at 10 o'clock, I'm going to be on time at that meeting because that's a behavioral choice to be excellent. You know? If we are working on things like preparation, that's excellence. And so a lot of times, for me I'm always like, what's working, what's not, what needs to be fixed? Maybe another way you could ask it is, what's right? What's wrong? What's missing? What's confusing? Because in these questions, surfaces things that, man, you know what? We aren't really doing that well. And then it shows up over here, like, wow, there's some ambiguity there. Or why are we even doing that? The church is notorious for adding and adding and adding and adding, and I think sometimes what we do in adding, we get complexity. When we get complexity, we get ambiguity. Versus what would it look like for us to actually subtract?

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
You know?

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
And maybe go about clarity that way.

Michael Buckingham:
That's good.

Jason Young:
So excellence, it's a mindset that then is delivered in a behavior and we have to model that. And that plays out in a lot of different ways from, if we hand out a bulletin at our church, the paper we choose, the way that it looks. I mean, I know you're a creative and it's like, wow, okay. I think somebody's four-year-old kid made that. And some people have said to me, "Well that stuff doesn't matter."

Jason Young:
And that is not excellent thinking. Everything communicates. And since everything communicates, everything deserves to be excellent. So you could take it spiritually or not spiritually. Spiritually speaking, God is entrusting us to represent him well. Representing him well would be to be excellent. If you take a spiritual sign, when you do things in an excellent manner, what it communicates to the person that is receiving, whatever it is you're saying you're doing, you're thoughtful. You're intentional. You're caring. And it feels like, you know what? They're doing the very best that they can. And this is the way it should be.

Michael Buckingham:
That's good.

Jason Young:
I don't know if that makes any sense.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah. No, I love that. And the truth is, I tell my team here, everything is marketing, right? Everything we do is marketing and brand and things of that sort. And so the truth is, even in your example, "Well, no, that's fine. It doesn't matter." Then don't waste time on it. Just waste time on the things that matter and the things that you're good at. And in the spiritual context, the things that God's called you to, because if he's not called you to it, then why are you doing it? Why are you spend any time and emotion and energy in those areas? Many are ideas and plans in a man's heart, but it's God's way that prevails. So spend your time in that kind of a thing and be excellent in it and be aware.

Michael Buckingham:
And again, what I love about this entire concept and where I'm seeing a bigger focus in our world today, I think is especially coming through what we all just came through over the last couple of years. We're seeing each other more. We're recognizing that we want to be seen, but we're also recognizing that you want to be seen. And it's much more about people now than maybe projects or our agendas. And I love that.

Michael Buckingham:
So it's interesting. When I first looked at the book, it's about how to have, oh good, great customer service and great guest experience. But I think it's so much deeper than that. So I'm really excited for people to get into this book and get their hands on it. Tell people what's the best way to get hold of the book.

Jason Young:
Yeah. You said something that's interesting, and I would agree with you. You won't find this phrase in the book. I don't even know that I really use this phrase often, but I think, I hope, I hope that the book helps people understand people.

Michael Buckingham:
Yeah.

Jason Young:
It's like, well, that's elementary. But because we're humans, we sometimes focus on ourselves. And because we're humans, I think we have over the number of years, we've increased our addiction to motion. Sometimes what we can do is we can overlook just the basic human needs of the person that is next to us. And for me, that's why I revisit this idea of hospitality, because for me hospitality is intentionally showing generous care to another person. And there's some key words in that. Intentionally, generous, and care. Right? And so if we could do that more often. Again, in your home, with your neighbor, at the pool that you hang out with, and maybe your neighborhood, at your church. Whatever it might look like, in your company. So they could go to thecomebackculture.com and check out the book there. catchfiredaily.com is my particular website. There's

Michael Buckingham:
Oh, awesome.

Jason Young:
There's other books there. And there's some resources, free resources, on that website as well.

Michael Buckingham:
Awesome. And we'll, of course, put the links on the website and all that kind of stuff as well. So man, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time, and truly, thank you for you and Jonathan writing this book. For everyone that's listening and watching, get ahold of this book. Whether you read it, whether you listen to it, get ahold of this book, and truly get to a place where you can live a life that says, "How can I make other people's lives better?" I think your life will become better because of it. Thanks, Jason. So good to see you again.

Jason Young:
Thanks Michael. You too, buddy.

Michael Buckingham:
All right.

Christa Neidig:
Thanks for listening to the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderbloemen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, vanderbloemen.com. 

You can reach Jason Young at catchfiredaily.com